this post was submitted on 13 Aug 2023
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LOL. I definitely did not believe Iraq had WMDs. It was insane what the US and its partners did in Iraq. It solved nothing. It probably made things worse in the Middle East, at least for 20 years, and it cost a lot of lives.
But let’s not use that fact to say everything the West is doing is wrong. Just like a few of the good things China doesn’t make everything China does correct.
If you payed closer attention you'd notice that we have a range of opinions on China, and we don't all think everything they do is correct. That's what the term critical support means. It's a recognition that even socialist states are imperfect, as the nation state as an institution is fundamentally imperfect and will always and everywhere undermine freedom to some degree. But a state which is undergoing the transition to socialism, particularly one that's putting themselves in a position to undermine US imperial hegemony like China is, is well worth supporting, even as we acknowledge its flaws and contradictions.
What none of us will ever tolerate are accusations of genocide with one discredited religious fanatic as the source, or racist insults being hurled at their head of state, both things I've seen numerous times from users from other instances.
Real challenge right there.
For real though. It's hardly difficult to find a bunch of leftists arguing about China lmao
I believed it. I was a child at the time, but I believed it. Because the entire US was screaming it was true.
After Libya, my illusions were fully shattered. Now I search out the backstory devoid of Western sources.
You claim you didn’t believe, but you still buy the US line today.
How can you reconcile such a monstrous lie they told in Iraq with the idea that they could ever be trusted again? That cognitive dissonance broke my belief in the West entirely.
Millions died on a lie. Justice would be execution for every official involved. They are doing it again, but once again most won’t realize it until years after.
I can understand that because you feel duped, you find it hard to trust anything the US says today.
I didn’t feel duped, though. It was clearly an insane lie meant to justify a neocon, hawkish invasion of Iraq and Bush Jr was desperate to “finish the job” and get a pat on his back by Bush.
The world is super complex. Not everything the West does is good - there’s plenty of examples in history, less from present day but definitely cases (Iraq is an awful example). Similarly, not everything China does is bad, far from it. I’ve travelled there extensively and work with Chinese citizens every single day. I have no hate for Chinese people - count many as my friend and they’re both hard working and fun to be around after work (once you get to know them). There’s plenty of things to like in China. And once you get to know Chinese people well, they will tell you story after story about the insanity inside their own country - that they are well aware of. They laugh at their own government.
So I’m not confused about the balance of things. On balance, the West is a far better influence on the world and care-taker of its citizens than China is. And let’s not get started on the Russian state, which is an oligarchic kleptocracy driven to violence by its isolated dictator.
Hey, since you already understand that the war on terror was a lie, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts after listening to Blowback Season 2 and Season 3. They're about Cuba and Korea. I grew up believing they were no good and completely evil, but there is a verifiable truth that is propagandized against in the west. You don't even have to use non-western sources to get to that truth, it's just that if you don't know you've been lied to, there's no reason to dig in.
It's certainly not a single lie over the War on Terror that has led to our complete distrust of the American state.
Simple statistics like literacy and life expectancy disagree with this assessment.
You won't find much support for Russia on Hexbear. You're mistaking our disdain for NATO as support for Russia. Russia is not the Soviet Union.
I shall have a listen. Thanks for the recommendation 🙏
For FWIW I don’t think the WoT was “a lie” - nor was it a complete truth. I remain broadly in support of what the west did in Afghanistan (and I’m saying this despite one of my previous buddies dying over there), although I definitely to this day will argue that the second war on Iraq was borderline evil and most definitely a war crime.
I’m not American, by the way, so my point of comparison isn’t China vs US, but China “the west”. The US has plenty of problems too.
You are correct that it’s my impression that Hexbear users broadly support Russia.
"I remain broadly in support of an unprovoked war of aggression that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands."
NATO has bombed and destroyed not just Iraq, but the majority of the middle east. It runs an occupation force today in Syria. NATO didn't just destroy Iraq, it colonized Iraq's agriculture, which is now dependent on imports from NATO while it feeds pasta to Texan schools. NATO has transformed Libya into an open air slave market, flooded Syria with weapons, backed Israeli Apartheid, blockaded Iran, couped the government of Pakistan, and caused a famine in Afghanistan on their way out by sanctioning yet another people. The little girls whose rights NATO countries cared about so very much then starved to death. Not for any reason, not to achieve any objective. But only out of spite.
NATO has couped and propagandized it's way across Latin America. This is not ancient history. It is current and ongoing. It claims outright that they won't stop blockading Venezuela until it's oil is owned by american shareholders. So not only bombs, deaths by starvation and lack of medicine are perfectly fine for the organization. Just as Syrians and Chinese people have no right to territorial integrity, Cubans have had no right to ally with whoever they want for generations.
NATO runs an actual and currently existing Colonial Empire across Africa. One of it's leading voices, France, owns the infrastructure, finances and natural resources of dozens of countries, assassinating its way into total dominance. Then it gives some scraps back to those colonies, and calls it 'Foreign Aid'. Berating the poors for being so dependent. Once challenged, NATO has yet again chosen to starve people to death with trade wars on basic infrastructure, food, and medicine.
I'm Brazilian. When the Bolsonaro family was literally calling Chinese monkeys on twitter the Chinese were remarkably patient. The USA berates us for being 'anti-american' because we aren't grateful of how Biden chose not to coup us last year. As if it's not humiliating enough that a fascist in this country can draw on the history of America and outright ask the CIA for help staying in power. There are now US troops supporting the coup government of Peru. Right after coup attempts in Bolivia and Venezuela. We now watch as high ranking US government officials float the idea of invading Mexico, under the cover of a war on drugs. After years of waging it in Colombia and Central America. But we all know it's because Mexico nationalized stuff that Americans don't want to see owned by Mexicans.
There are no fucking standards for comparison. There are no regions of this world which do not witness current and ongoing hybrid wars waged by NATO countries at the behest of the USA.
The West is a defensive alliance between warmongerers. The Americans at least have the decency of wearing their thirst for blood on their sleeve. Democrat or Republican, they've all had their share of wars they enjoy supporting. It's the Europeans who will cry on TV while sending volunteers to Iraq and Afghanistan.
I only pray for any people who is targetted by NATO's eye of sauron. Or has to make do with sharing a border such an evil collection of governments.
I understand that the US is the among the most evil and genocidal forces in human history.
I came to that realization through being duped.
That is a very important distinction. None of this comes from some petty sense of slight.
To consider the US a better influence on the world than China is not only laughable, it is obscene.
The US exterminated an entire continent of innocent people as the opening act to their crimes, and have only added to that list with every passing year. Never have they meaningfully repented or cleaned house from those acts.
It would be as if Nazi Germany survived for three centuries.
The US carried out nuclear murder to make a political point. The US butchered and destroyed the lives of billions in the global south and they aim to do the same to China next.
That's interesting. Now i'm genuinely curious what broke your resistance.
I’m not sure I understand your question. Do you mean “what made me realise that Iraq had no WMDs”? Well, for starters that the UN had been all over the bloody country inspecting it for years. Secondly that Colin Powell’s session at the UN presented drawings as evidence. Drawings.