this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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Cyclists always try to use this defense/whataboutism way too often, without realizing that to a pedestrian, you on your bike are just as deadly as a car. Motorists are at least expected to know the rules of the road, cyclists openly oppose any sort of education and even act offended at the idea that they too should know the rules of the road they're on. As a pedestrian in Toronto, cyclists are my biggest danger, not motorists.
Statistically, that's not true. A car at any speed can kill a pedestrian or cyclist. For a cyclist to kill a pedestrian, which is exceedingly rare, it would take a lot of speed and bad luck to result in a fatality. I don't think I've ever even heard of a cyclist killing a pedestrian at a stop sign.
But to be clear, I don't advocate for cyclists blowing through stops when there are pedestrians around, since that's obviously not obeying the right of way. I aim to be a defensive and respectful rider when I'm on my bike.
But I would still like to see more enforcement of stop rules being applied to motorists (and not cyclists on empty roads), since they really are responsible for the vast majority of catastrophic injury and death for pedestrians and cyclists.
At the same time, we can't ignore that far too many pedestrians put themselves at risk, so everyone has some personal responsibility here.
Everyone keeps talking about how bikes can't hurt pedestrians, meanwhile my wife's aunt has permanent brain damage cause she got hit by a cyclist.
I'm really sorry to hear that.
Bikes CAN hurt pedestrians, but it's statistically rare compared to injuries/death caused by cars. E-bikes increase the risk significantly, though.
It also illustrates that proper infrastructure is needed, since an accident like that shouldn't even happen. In some areas around here, we have split trails, which separate (by several meters and bushes) cyclists and pedestrians.
However, there are often pedestrians strolling on the cyclist side, or cyclists on the pedestrian side, and that's just dangerous for everyone. I honestly don't know why simple routes are so difficult for some people to follow.
I think this is the most important part that you are ignoring here.
Certainly, cyclists aren't as deadly as a motor vehicle. However, cyclists who don't respect the rules are still very much dangerous.
As the other person said, as a pedestrian I too have been a victim of being hit by cyclists several times because they blew a red light. Several. Times. And each time I lay on the ground while the cyclist yelled and insulted me and ran away.
This has never happened to me with a motorist because the vast motorist respect rules and signage on the road and they understand the consequences.
I, myself, as a cyclist have been a victim of several other cyclists on the road, and in reserved bike lanes, who are not careful or respectful of other cyclists. I've been pushed over and ran into by other cyclists.
Attitudes and respect of the rules of the road need to change among cyclists.
I do agree! I don't want cyclists to ignore rules or ride like maniacs, but I also don't want cyclists to be targeted for doing things that shouldn't even be against the law.
They were flat out breaking the law and riding dangerously, so I'm sorry that happened to you. That's NOT what an Idaho Stop seeks to remedy.
Statistically, it really is cars and trucks that are killing people (or even severely injuring them), and other accidents not involving motor vehicles are really quite rare.
Not to discount your experience, because it is important to acknowledge that cyclist on pedestrian accidents still do happen, but they are **very ** rare.
Agreed.
I think that everyone should be riding respectfully, and while we can't change asshole behaviour, we can certainly do our best to not punish good cyclists.
Oh good, pedestrians will only need to work about being seriously hurt then, but probably not dead.
If a cop sees a car run the lights, that car will likely get a ticket. In most cases that I've seen it's not that the laws are unenforced so much as there's nobody with authority to do so witnessing the transgression.
I don't want pedestrians to have to worry about any type of injury!
You have to look at things in context, because pedestrian safety has a LOT to do with pedestrian behaviour, poor infrastructure, and motor vehicles, not whether a cyclist decides to roll through a stop sign at an empty intersection.
Cyclists and pedestrians can still get into conflicts with each other, but it doesn't happen as often and certainly not as severely as other types of accidents.
But here's some food for thought: the Traffic Injury Research Foundation out of Ottawa put out a fact sheet which showed that in fatally injured pedestrians, nearly 50% had alcohol in their system (the pedestrian, not the driver); 40% had drugs in their system.
In my experience as a driver, pedestrian, and cyclist, many pedestrians aren't aware of their own surroundings, which puts them at risk.
J-walking, walking before they get a "walk" signal, walking with headphones, not walking where they're supposed to be (i.e. wrong side of a multi-use path), not wearing bright clothing at night, etc.
Everyone has to be mindful of their own behaviour to increase the chance of being safe, but that's not to say that poor infrastructure has no fault in this.
But I can't really speak to the city experience, since I don't live in Downtown Toronto. In those cases, I do defer to what stats and studies say about cyclist/pedestrian safety.
I don't disagree, but unfortunately there's only so much one can do to anticipate the stupidity of the average oblivious pedestrian, and while I've had a few encounters with people crossing against the signals/traffic with earbuds in, the gross majority also seem to be members of the growing local transient population who are often fairly inebriated or generally dismissive of societal rules.
I'd say the best one can do is pay attention and follow rules that used to be taught in old safe-driving courses (but also apply to biking). I slow down a bit and am ready to brake at populated intersections even if I have the right-of-way, slow or move farther out when I see rambunctious/unattended kids on the sidewalk, and the same for drunks, transients, or areas where such congregate and are known to spontaneously bolt across the road.
Assuming somebody may demonstrate a spontaneous lack of self-preservation has saved me from running somebody down on more than one occasion, both with motor-vehicles or bikes. I also tend to give more space to BMW's, Audi's, and lifted trucks... because reasons :-)
Lol car hitting cyclists and pedestrians go vrooom
I'm not of a fan of the whataboutism either. Many of us are all three. Objectively a pedestrian-cyclist crash is a lot less likely to leave you with a life changing injury than a pedestrian-car crash, purely due to the massive difference in energies involved. In order to get a more accurate intuition for the expected damage, you have to think about the energy involved. That's given by the speed (squared) times the mass. A light car is about 10x heavier than a cyclist on a bike. For the same speed it has 10x the energy to impact on your bones and tissues. Therefore you should expect a lot more damage. That doesn't mean that the large number of pedestrian-cyclist near-misses isn't mentally impactful. They are and they do absolutely happen a lot. Getting scared regularly isn't healthy or fun. Ironically though, cars going quietly at 30kph don't feel as scary, yet they will easily maim pedestrians on impact, often permanently. My destroyed subtalar joint from a seemingly minor accident on a crossing can attest to that.