this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2024
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And this is why 405000 Americans lost lives fighting against nazism and Japan imperialism? I do not belive how this is both offensive and stupid.
They did it to uphold Anglo imperialism. That's why they intentionally let the Holocaust happen and were fully prepared to integrate Nazi Germany into the international order after their invasion of Poland.
Also why they spent the next 60 years fighting to keep colonies from gaining independence.
This reminds me far right conspiracy theories
I seriously recommend you to read about imperialism. Imperialist nations (i.e. late stage capitalistic, industrialized nations, with sufficient accumulation of capital and sufficient development of monopolies, trusts and cartels, to the point of the most profitable action being the export of capital to other, poorer nations, with or without the consent of the locals), clash with each other in these attempts to expand their sphere of influence. This happened in WW1, WW2, and we're seeing it again with the Russian-NATO conflict which led to the Ukraine invasion.
Primarily the Russian government's fault, but of course NATO is partly at fault. Belonging to NATO isn't a human right, and the expansion of NATO further east than Germany shouldn't have taken place. If European countries wanted a military alliance, they should have made their own. I don't believe I need to preface every comment saying "I wholeheartedly condemn the actions of the fascist Russian government in Ukraine", which I do, as much as I don't preface my comment saying "I wholeheartedly condemn the actions of NATO in Iraq", which I also do.
Why should the expansion of NATO past Germany not have happened? No one forces countries to join NATO, they all willfully joined, often having to jump through several hoops to do so.
As I said, I know they willfully joined, I'm saying they shouldn't be allowed to join a military alliance with NATO, the same way I would want China not to create a military alliance and then incorporate Mexico and Canada, even if Mexico and Canada wanted to. Joining a military alliance isn't a human right.
Actually that is a human right. Countries are free to ally with whatever country they want pending any previous agreements. Eastern European countries made zero promises and had zero obligation to not join NATO. Russia doesn't have fucking "dibs" on them, just like the US doesn't have "dibs" on Canada or Mexico. I wouldn't have a problem with Mexico or Canada willfully joining an alliance with China because that is, in fact, their right to do so. And it would speak volumes to how far relations would have had to deteriorate between them and the US to get there, but that is their right to do so. Maybe if Russia wasn't such a shitty, untrustworthy neighbor, more countries would be willing to ally with them instead of NATO, but hey, that's Russia's problem.
Source?
Free to do so, for sure, I'm not claiming illegality, I'm claiming it's wrong. It leads historically to escalation, not to mitigation of tensions. Remember the missile crisis
Again, you're not understanding me for some reason. I'm not putting the blame on those countries, I'm putting the blame on NATO itself. It's not that these countries shouldn't want to join a pre-existing military alliance, it's that a supposedly defensive military alliance shouldn't incorporate member countries ever closer to the declared enemy of the US of A.
I would have immense problems with China fostering military relations with the neighbouring countries of their geopolitical adversary, and if you don't, I think you should rethink that.
I don't want any countries to ally militarily with Russia. I fully understand that Russia has a fascist aggressive government and I'm glad I don't currently live next to it as a Spanish citizen. My whole point is that NATO isn't a "purely defensive military alliance of independent countries", it's an organization subservient to the interests of the USA which has shown no remorse to act on foreign countries which didn't threat military action against member states of NATO, as was the case in Libya and Yugoslavia, and unofficially in Iraq.
Find me the source for ANY human right.
I hope you're a troll but here you go
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
That's a declaration of human rights, not a philosophical logical demonstration of why we are endowed with rights. The person was pointing out the silliness of your original question.
They literally said "Actually it is a human right", referring to the right of a nation to join a particular military alliance. They are the ones defending that, not me.
It might be a language issue. You asked for a source that nations have a right (some would argue a 'human' right) to join alliances:
So the question asking for a source on 'human rights' is kinda nonsensical, that's why they responded the way they did. You can't provide a source for 'human rights'. That's a philosophical / metaphysical question. There is no official source for human rights hence why the question makes no sense.
On another note, are you the guy I was discussing a while back about conscription in Ukraine? Can't remember. Hope you are all right if you are.
No, but thanks for the good wishes anyway
The question would be nonsensical when brought up randomly, not when brought up in the context of asking someone who claimed "joining a particular military alliance is a human right" . I wouldn't be asking that question if they didn't say "actually it is a human right to join a military alliance". When categorically affirming what is and what isn't a human right, in my opinion, it's understood that this would be the consensus of some international organization, or some resolution signed by almost every country on earth. Of course there's dissent, and discussion is good, but saying that "joining a military alliance is a human right" is extremely fringe and, frankly, the first time I've seen it, so I'd like to see where they got that from.
Yea I agree. It's a strange way to phrase it
Right, and the heroic Soviets also fought to combat the evil that were the Nazis, because they were natural enemies, no other reason no... /s (just in case it wasn't obvious.)
Being a facist doesn't stop you from fighting other fascists, especially when those other fascists are fucking with your shit. The only difference until now was that the two parties managed to deadlock each other needing the support of an uncaring populace to gain total power. Once one ultimately wins, this whole "pillar of democracy" thing is over. Having literally only 2 parties for centuries is a bad omen for democracy.
While this resonates with trump, could you tell me how this fits to other American presidents? What traits US poses to call it "fascist"?
Before I get to your question...that's a really weird definition. I mean it excludes most stereotypical fascist regimes, like nazi Germany for example. A communist revolution wasn't really on their list of fears or even concerns. In Weimar Germany they even shared voters. Most communist party voters became nazi voters once they became a thing, they run on the same platform. It's in the bloody name, Nazi = National Socialism. This definition seems to deliberately only target America, the US is the only one that goes fucking ape-shit when socialism let alone communist is at all mentioned.
Anyways, to your question. We weren't really talking about presidents specifically, tho most of them fit the bill. Both democrats and republicans say the fucking "you're with me or against me" shit, like really??? The US generally has a rich history of violently shutting down competing powers, be it domestic or abroad (a 2 party system IS NOT natural for a democracy!). American imperialist wars are pretty much build on forcefully spreading American culture at any cost (especially if it involves killing anybody claiming to be socialist or not christian). From a young age US citizens are indoctrinated, the shit where they swear loyalty to the flag every morning is creepy as fuck, also the flash everywhere. Like christ, just look at how Americans treat foreigners. Didn't even mention the police yet...
Is this really what makes a fascist? Almost every party in democratic world uses similar rhetorics.
This is pretty much 99% of human history
and what to tell about single party systems, like China? Do you call them fascist too?
I do not feel forced to watch "Top gun" or eat McDonalds
thanks god they did not kill Bernie Sanders
like any other fucking country, just look at Chinese schools
still, rather weird tradition or aesthetics, not a fascism, for fuck's sake
they behave like assholes at worst, still millions of foreign people dream about living in USA
This sucks indeed, but this is not inherent to USA, rather to police in general.
Summing things up, these accusations about fascism seems completely baseless and using the word "fascism" in the context of US is just making it meaningless and makes impression that US are similar to nazi Germany. US are imperialist at best, but boy, I prefer to live under US empire that fucking russian shithole.
Nope, predominantly an American quote in the 21st century. And while it doesn't necessarily make you a fascists, it does check the extreme tribalism flag. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_are_either_with_us,_or_against_us
Correct, and modern democracies tried their best to change course. Some more successfully than others. If you want successful examples look at Finland, those guys played a significant role in many peace treaties, including the famous European peace. And here's the kicker, FOR NOTHING IN RETURN. Or rather no immediate monetary or political gain.
YES, quite literally and unironically YES! Like come on? "Communism with Chinese Characteristics"? We're just a couple word plays away from "National Socialism". The Chinese government is actively conducting ethnic cleansing and jailing anybody who isn't Chinese enough. Come on!
At this point I'm starting to feel you're a troll, but hey, it's fun, so let's keep going xD I was more referring to America's foreign policy here.
Again, mainly meant foreign policy. However Burnie doesn't get off free either. The democrats didn't even give him a chance to be a presidential candidate despite being the crowd favorite. The guy's getting silenced.
Not every country, again, look at Finland, Estonia or the Netherlands. Great examples of an education system that respect the people's freedoms. And while most other European countries have something fucked up, non are anywhere near "KNEEL FOR THE FLAG!" level.
Weird esthetics? Maybe because the esthetic invokes the other counties that did this which most were under either fascism or communism. Like sure, it doesn't necessarily make you fascists, but role-playing as one every morning is still fucking suspicious.
Look in a mirror. The US treats everyone else like a terrorist before they even step foot into the country. And yes, half the people that didn't go to America yet still think it's amazing. America is really good at advertising. If America doesn't want foreigners to dream about it, maybe it could stop advertising it self as the only valid way of life.
Kinda, there are some bad apples in other counties too, like France for example. But the US still stands proud and tall for having one of the worst. Literally no other county arrest more people per capita than American. Not even your favorite China. Also having snipers at every protest? Fucking really? Direct military hand downs?
You say my "accusations", but most of what I said are statements you didn't even negate, just said that some of em don't necessarily make the US fascist and the rest you renamed to "imperialism", which IS NOT BETTER! The only difference is that imperialism doesn't need to include nationalism, it's an umbrella term, under which fascism falls under!
But boy, it's funny you'd mention the Russian shithole, considering the US seems rather proactively aiming towards it. The republicans especially seem to have em as their role model. If things keep changing the way they have been for the last 20 years, I give it tops another 30 years before the only thing that makes America better than Russia will be the running water. Maybe faster if the supreme courts keeps up the pace it demonstrated the last 2 weeks.
Ey, cheers mate, refreshing to get a composed response!
I'd argue there are more sides than just NATO vs China and friends. India often fucks over both sides because both refuse to acknowledge it and its concerns for example. It saddens me that such counties don't give a shit, but I can't really fault them too much considering we do the same to them. And such rhetoric only serves as fuel for them to mock us.
You're definitely right that we also need military might to protect our values, as a European I'm disgusted by our inactivity and reliance on the US. On the subject of cute counties, I'd argue Finland isn't one of em, I'd also add Sweeden just for military reasons while I'm at it. Both have strong militaries with plenty of reserves/mobilization potential, Finland even has nuclear ready bunkers under every major city. So glad we got em in NATO now, hope the rest of Europe catches up soon.
And not gonna lie, as much as I shit on America, it's largely because I'm also sacred. The US is on a slippery slope due to decades of ignorance and if the US goes to shit it's gonna have far and wide consequences around the globe. I hope the Trump situation will act as a wake up call for us in Europe, and we'll get our shit together, not only to be self sufficient, but hopefully emerge as a genuine ally for peace and freedom that reaches beyond diplomacy. If America falls and Europe doesn't get its shit together, that's good bye for Ukraine and then what? That would set a new standard, a world in which might makes right... No even an attempt at rule of law.
No, there are no more sides. India was buying shittons of russian military equipment and stopped to do so since it is even worse shit after the soviet union collapse. India is not a third, autonomous pole in the world geopolitics. Another "two faced" country I can recall is Hungary. I think there is no doubt now that Orban is Putin's cocksucking lapdog.
I think the situation improves a little, I think France underperformed despite Macron's bold words. Now the things may get better. But there is plenty to be done, and much more efforts to be taken, i.e. military spending like during the Cold War.
When I am writing it, Britain and France voted, and the results gave me hope. These are very good news for Europe. I hope that Americans will go vote and choose whoever will be Trump's opponent. I am so pissed by the "both sides bad", "I am not voting" fucking tankie Kremlin trolls.
Baltic countries, Poland, other countries from the post-communist block, more... Especially given the resources taken in Ukraine. Europe would be fucked.
Anyway, I wish for you and myself (also European) that the russian authoritarian scums will be stopped together with their lapdogs.
Oopsie poopsie