this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2024
363 points (92.9% liked)

Asklemmy

43988 readers
766 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy 🔍

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] pr06lefs@lemmy.ml 264 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Rich shitbags funding divisive propaganda to make the plebs fight each other and vote against their own interests.

[–] HexadecimalSky@lemmy.world 103 points 2 months ago

Any war but a class war...

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 46 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Musk and JK Rowling come to mind, specifically.

[–] BCsven@lemmy.ca 34 points 2 months ago (5 children)

JK Rowling is just mad that gender doesn't fit the sorting hat.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] son_named_bort@lemmy.world 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They both genuinely hate trans people though. Hell, Musk disowned his own trans daughter. Like if he was just in it to divide the population he wouldn't be treating his trans child so horribly.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 132 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 66 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Exactly. Its no coincidence we went from Occupy Wall Street and national level discourse about actual healthcare and UBI, to such debates as 'is genocide okay?' and 'are nazis bad?' Purposeful misdirection that in it's staunch opposition to anything left of capitalism, created fascism.

[–] yesman@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago (6 children)

You know, it's perfectly OK to group voters by identity, so long as that identity cannot exclude "Normal" people. Soccer Mom, Six pack Dad, Middle class, working poor, labor, Small Business owner, Rural, Urban, and Suburban are all perfectly fine to promise these groups political power. But you do the exact same thing for queer people or black people and that's identity politics all of a sudden.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 86 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

Astroturfing.

Also, look up the genesis of the conservative media apparatus - specifically, Roger Ailes, Rupert Murdoch, and how that whole thing came to be in the post-Nixon era. There’s a lot of context, and none of it was done in good faith. The intent was always to game social norms and leverage populist appeals to emotion into tribal ideologies (I.e. us-vs-them/ingroup-vs-outgroup). That’s ultimately the fundamental basis for conservatism.

These days, foreign influence operations (often based in authoritarian countries) aimed at increasing the polarization of a target population also play a major role.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 65 points 2 months ago (5 children)

Conditions have gotten worse and the ruling class has chosen a scapegoat to distract people from the ongoing class war.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 52 points 2 months ago (10 children)

You've gotten enough good answers that I think it okay to address a tangent.

Things are definitely at the point where christofascists, and other hate driven ideologies are getting louder.

But, and this is vitally important as to why the pushback is making it a matter of public discourse at the level you're asking about, there's more allies now than ever.

Be ready for old man talking here, and ignore if not interested. Disclaimer: I have arthritis, and it's easier to type gay than LGBTQ, so I'll be using the shorter word for that reason, not as an exclusion.

Back in the seventies and eighties, gay rights was a thing for mostly gay people. Before that it had been gaining minor support, and the eighties were when social restrictions started changing enough that gay people were allowed to have some degree of public awareness in both news and fiction.

I keep bringing it up in various places, but Billy Crystal played the first recurring openly gay character on television. That was in 1977, and ran until 1981. I don't think it can be said enough how huge that was in bringing awareness of gay people as just people was. That role brought gay into our homes and lives in a way nothing had before.

When something makes a group real to the majority, makes things stop being a dirty secret and just another part of life, you get kids growing up that are more open and accepting. As acceptance grew, so did the amount of people coming out.

As people came out, the straights realized that not only had they always known gay people, but they liked them, and even loved them for years, sometimes a lifetime. When that starts spreading, you have more people that are willing to support gay people and their rights as fellow humans.

Instead of being pariahs, gay people became part of life, part of our hearts. Eventually, more and more people that didn't have direct relationships with someone gay became allies, supporters.

However, the more gay people became a part of life, the more noise bigots made, in their own homes and in public. So, instead of it being a dirty little secret nobody talked about, that way of thinking got nastier and louder. Before, it wasn't something everyone would even know about until much later in life, but as the gay rights movement in the seventies started building up steam, you had more hatred being spewed as well. There had been before, but it was more likely to be handled with dismissive or contemptuous remarks rather than outright venom and bile in the open.

Now, us folks that were kids during the late 70s and early 80s didn't just accept gay folks. We would often defy elders that opposed gay rights or bad talked them. As time passed and we grew up, the segment of that generation that became allies tended to be more and more vocal in our support. By the nineties, my generation was moving into adulthood and willing to vote our conscience. We were willing to put our time and money into the cause. Sometimes, we'd put our bodies on the line when things got ugly.

Move forward to now, and you've got two or three generations actively and loudly opposing the bigots, and not just the gay people. The bigots are smaller in number, but have been pandered to by political groups around the world, so have more weight than their numbers should give them.

Mind you, the bigots also include people of every generation too. Don't imagine that there aren't kids even that spew the same kind of nastiness that's been used since before the 70s. But there's more in direct opposition to them, and plenty of passive dismissal of the bigotry. Bigotry is not a relic of the past, nor is it limited to older generations; some of the loudest and most obnoxious hatred gets spewed by younger adherents. But the seeming percentage of hate is lower in younger generations, and the seeming percentage of outright support is higher.

That puts us in the situation we're in, where hate has a bigger voice than it should, and love/acceptance has to shout louder to oppose it.

[–] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Hey.

I really enjoyed your comment. It's very well written. Nice job. That's it; that's all.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Things are definitely at the point where christofascists, and other hate driven ideologies are getting louder.

Good time to bring up how their numbers are drastically thinning. This is a big win and part of why we need to fight them hard as their fear of marginalization causes them to switch from dirty tactics to outright fascism to cling to power.

Survey: White Christianity is declining while the religiously unaffiliated keep growing

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] neidu2@feddit.nl 48 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Because right wingers spent the past ten years repackaged the fear mongering about "The Gay Agenda" and call it woke instead.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.world 29 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Which is a repackaging of the satanic panic.

[–] Addv4@lemmy.world 26 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Which is a repackaging of the red panic.

[–] KillerTofu@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What about reefer madness?!

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] demesisx@infosec.pub 45 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (8 children)

Wedge issues.

Equal rights for

everyone

regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and ethnicity are something that we, as a society, actually solved decades ago that aren’t even a question. They were brought back into public discourse by corrupt people that seek to keep us distracted while they rob us all blind. The two party system in the US (and any nation that uses a FPTP voting system that limits us to a MAXIMUM of two viable parties) is a HUGE reason why they still exist.

The reason we still argue endlessly about these solved issues is that the two parties are so similar in their other policies that they have decided to highlight those issues (as if there’s even a debate about them) because the two parties align in lockstep behind the other issues. The super wealthy people at the top don’t want us talking about things that will cause ALL of us to stand up and demand improvements to our material conditions so they have their demagogues loudly trumpet the absolutely miniscule differences between them and the conservative parties to whip their voters into a frenzy in support of voting against their best interest.

Then, I have to fight with unwitting dupes in the comment section that have fallen victim to the marketing gimmick that the black female version of Reagan is “fighting for good” despite her being politically aligned with Reagan on virtually every issue other than identity politics.

I’m calling the DNC technique of wrapping Reaganomics in a friendly identity politics outer shell “woke-washing” because of how similar it is to “green-washing”.

Chomsky proved this conclusively.The democratic party’s policy summed up in one image.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

That fucking rock was installed a few years ago to keep homeless people from sleeping. Very inclusive 😡

[–] demesisx@infosec.pub 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yup. The DNC should use that in an honest rebranding.

Equal rights for all (except the poor).

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ShaggySnacks@lemmy.myserv.one 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I’m calling the DNC technique of wrapping Reaganomics in a friendly identity politics outer shell “woke-washing” because of how similar it is to “green-washing”.

Some More News did a segment on how Regan forced the Democrat Party to go further right in order to achieve power. Same thing happened in the UK after Thatcher. The Labour Party swung right to get votes.

I don't have the data however I would imagine, that after the the conservative 80s, a lot left wing parties moved to the right to capture votes.

Also Regan elevated Jerry Falwall and the Christian Religious Right.

Coverage naturally gravitated toward Lynchburg, Virginia, preacher Jerry Falwell, who had supported Anita Bryant’s 1977 anti-gay-rights crusade, and Virginia Beach television mogul Pat Robertson, who was involved with the Washington for Jesus rally of April 1980 (scheduled to coincide with the anniversary of the first landing at Jamestown).

Falwell, head of the Moral Majority (another nod to Nixon), was more eager to enter the political arena. He thus became the first anointed spokesperson of what was then commonly called the “Religious New Right.”

During the 1980 campaign, Ronald Reagan and the evangelical conservatives engaged in a very public courting ritual. Evangelicals had entertained possible GOP alternatives to Carter since at least 1979. Options abounded— ranging from right-wing purist Philip Crane of Illinois to early front-runner John Connally of Texas—but Reagan, long a darling of conservatives in general, was an especially compelling choice. By the time Moral Majority executive director Robert Billings signed on as a Reagan campaign adviser, the deal was pretty much sealed.

Truly Regan was a piece of shit.

[–] demesisx@infosec.pub 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That’s actually a bullshit talking point used by the Progressive Policy Institute (which are not even remotely Progressive) and other right wing think-tanks. They pushed right because of the DLC. They used the “capturing votes” thing to excuse the rightward push. They STILL love that talking point despite Bernie having the most bipartisan grassroots support in the last 40 years..

They had to move heaven and earth to cheat him.

Do you know that the Democratic Leadership Council was even worse because they were so ultimately SUCCESSFUL in pushing the DNC all the way to Reaganism since the 90’s that they dissolved in 2011 and their archives were added to the Clinton Foundation?

IMO, Clintonites and neoliberals were even more nefarious since they successfuly pretended to be leftists while purposely pushing the Democratic Party rightward to what we see today. Coupled with regulatory capture in the form of Citizens United, they now have a virtually-impenetrable corporatist stronghold in the US.

Further reading: https://www.salon.com/2016/04/30/clintonism_screwed_the_democrats_how_bill_hillary_and_the_democratic_leadership_council_gutted_progressivism/

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 43 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's not "all of a sudden". And it's not "the world". And it's not even "America". Rather, you're now consuming media that's exposing you to thoughts that have always been around, often on the fringes.

Remember, bigots have always existed, and polite bigots toe the line as much as they're forced to. They aren't going to disappear, ever. (That being said, we can make them less relevant and powerful.)

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] pyre@lemmy.world 36 points 2 months ago (1 children)

these things come up whenever the right wing needs a distraction. they have to keep finding new groups to blame society's ills on, so that conservatives don't realize it's their politics that lead to those.

whenever a group inevitably becomes too accepted (or at least not feared enough) to be a distraction, they move on to the next group. sometimes they bring an oldie back because that's fashion for you.

[–] demesisx@infosec.pub 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If that were the case, the Dems could just stand up and say, “You and I both know that those aren’t even issues. They are open and shut case of right vs. wrong. Here are the issues that actually matter to people on both sides of the political spectrum:

  • stop sending our tax money to bomb people
  • give us Single Payer
  • break up monopolies
  • make it possible to afford a home
  • make college education free
  • increase wages
  • help labor
  • etc”

and they would win in a landslide (if elections were even fair in the first place).

But they don’t because they know that it allows them to give the donors (who are considered PEOPLE with ability to funnel ANY amount of money to a candidate because of Citizens United) what they want (more money) while doing ANYTHING to distinguish themselves to their sheeplike electorate.

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 35 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The 1% needs to endlessly divide the working class against itself. It's an old game with new tricks.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 35 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (8 children)

According to the GSS, only 10% of Americans reaponded "Agree" or "Strongly Agree" to the statement "Homosexuals should have the right to marry" in 1988 (first year the question was asked).

In 2004, it was 30%.

In 2022 it was 67%.

Also according to the GSS, 40 years ago a third of Americans thought homosexuals shouldn't have the right to speak.

We've made remarkable progress in a very short period.

[–] ChaoticGoodHeart@slrpnk.net 16 points 2 months ago

Yeah, trans people are just new targets. DOMA wasn't that long ago, but regressives lost the battle against gay people, so trans people are just the next rung on the hate ladder for them.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] caoimhinr@lemmy.world 26 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Especially America? There are countries executing people for their sexual orientation.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world 25 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (13 children)

Honestly a lot of it is just that trans people entered the popular consciousness and as the conversation started becoming mainstream a bunch of the already shit folks decided to capitalize on the deficit of people's understanding on the topic to smear and discredit progressive spaces as a whole.

It's all very vibes based on their side. They took a topic that has a lot of nuance and flattened it to take advantage of a view of the world that invents problems that feel true.

Like "There are trans rapists in women's prisons"... Out of the current 5000 trans people incarcerated in the US only 15 of them are currently in prisons that match their gender identity. The transition requirements are so high that there is no guarantee that being on estrogen for 10 years, full sterilization and bottom surgery is enough for a trans woman to meet the requirements.

Or

"Our lost lesbian sisters are getting sterilized in mass transitions to become trans men"... When hysterectomy isn't even a common gender affirming choice. Testosterone tends to halt menses so a lot of the time trans guys who want biological kids particularly can and do keep the bits and detransition (which just means a change in transition status not a full conversion to cisness) temporarily to meet that life goal if they see fit. Basically having fertility is a matter of going of testosterone for a couple of months.

But who is going to actually check this stuff. They know people won't.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 25 points 2 months ago (9 children)

Conservatives have been furious about that progress this whole time. They will never accept progress. If permitted, they will undo every bit of anti-bigotry progress made in the last 100 years and return us to a slave-based economy.

Conservatism is a deadly social cancer. It always has been.

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] paddirn@lemmy.world 24 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It's so dumb, like of all the challenges facing us as a species now, THAT'S the shit that people are getting worked up about? Life on Earth for humanity is in the process of going through a set of major environmental changes that we're probably not ready for and is going to have catastrophic results for some... and there's people out there getting bent out of shape about pronouns and sexual orientation. We need to be doing alot more preparing for what's coming over the next few years and a lot less bitching about things that don't personally affect us. It seemed like we had made some big strides for awhile there, and that seemingly got erased within the past 8 years.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 22 points 2 months ago (2 children)

20 years ago we were killing people for being gay, 10 years ago that was the worst thing you could be, what are you on?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] TheDeadHorse@lemmy.world 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

There are 8 billion people in the world. If 10,000 people on Xwitter are upset about something, it's statistically insignificant.

This is what pisses me off about people that go on about I’m sick of this woke society or sick of these “crazy trans people”, or whatever else.

And I’m like brother I do not care and most people do not care. Let people do what they want it ain’t that deep. I’m off the view if it doesn’t negatively affect me then what business is it of mine how people live their life. The things they get outraged over is just from some minority of loons on Twitter and not everybody.

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Because social media amplifies and incentivises minority, hateful views to make it seem like everyone is concerned about these things.

The reality is, it's the same small group of hateful idiots who are always in the spotlight.

In real life, even in small towns, people either don't care or they celebrate how far we've come as a society.

[–] BallsandBayonets@lemmings.world 16 points 2 months ago (2 children)

All the comments saying it's a distraction from how the working class is being oppressed by the owner class are right, but also...

There have always been bigots, small town small minded people who don't "know any gay people" but there was that one skinny boy in their class that didn't like sports so he was bullied until he left town at 18. And now, that generation of bigots is finally dying out. Not only due to age but due to an increased connection with the greater world. A small town bigot might not know any LGBT people personally but they are aware of their existence, due to television and the Internet. So quietly ignoring people who are different than you doesn't work anymore. And a dying animal fights harder than ever.

These death throes are useful to the owner class. But they are still dying out. And if we can exterminate capitalism and figure out a way to survive in a post-warmed globe, we might just see the end of (this particular type) of bigotry.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] BaldManGoomba@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago (3 children)

So you see something that concerned 2% to 15% of the population use to hide in the closet and or we didn't talk about it or know.

Now people are done hiding. Which impacts tons of people who barely understand their anatomy let alone their wives. When school never taught intersex and gender despite it being a thing that was understood in science in the 60s and 70s. A lot of people are suddenly confronted with a reality they don't understand. When peoples bubbles are popped first comes rejection of thing then comes fear and anger. Issue is with 8 billion people there is constantly people learning about sexual orientation, gender, and sex.

Let's not even talk about the internalize confusion of you people either. This is just current existing people learning about this stuff today.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

literally russian bot farms

[–] demesisx@infosec.pub 10 points 2 months ago

🤦🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏻🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏿🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽🤦🏿‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏽🤦🏽🤦🏾🤦🏽

load more comments
view more: next ›