this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2024
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Anarchism

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Discuss anarchist praxis and philosophy. Don't take yourselves too seriously.


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You call out Russia or China, MLs think if they regurgitate "read theory" that solves my issues with them.

You call out American liberals and how they aid fascists, you're calling a secret Trump supporter.

You say that genocide is an evil action, liberals and Tankies will defend their favorite country's actions because you're a shill for the enemy if you do.

You say America did something kinda good, you're somehow a neolib in disguise. You lightly praise the USSR, you're Stalin's second cousin as an AI.

I just don't want people harmed by a government force. Fuck me, I guess? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills for applying the same morals to every politician and country, even ones I live in or slightly like.

Edit: If someone said it was annoying being an leftist and a bunch of liberals came in exusing their actions and doubling down, everyone would be singing a different tune. Just kinda fascinating.

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[–] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 86 points 1 month ago (1 children)

from what you've typed here, it doesn't sound like you're expressing very thought-out arguments.

everything is a broad stroke or a defensive sarcastic poke.

your account is only 2 weeks old and this is your first post.

I just checked your comment history, a lot of your comments look designed to antagonize people and you use broad terms like fascist a lot without adding anything relevant to the conversation.

If you comment on specific policies without coming to a knee -jerk directly insulting holistic conclusion you probably won't be called out as often.

imagine that the people you are talking to are real people and how willing they would be to engage with your ideas if you said to a person face to face the things you are writing.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 26 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don't know if Varyk's claim of your style of engagement is true, I haven't looked at your comment history, so I'll respond to what you've faced regardless of if you've attracted more disagreement than strictly needed.

Being an anarchist, and being super direct and upfront about your views, is going you get you some ire no matter where you go.

The reason is, generally speaking, you're looking through history and systems of power with a lens that makes the problems with those other systems quite glaring.

The people who have adopted those other systems and ideologies will have already accepted the cognitive dissonance that comes with them, and they're not going to take kindly to your nuanced opinion that makes them have to reevaluate their cognitive dissonance again. It's much easier to dismiss or attack you instead.

Now there are ways of softening your critiques and opinions to make them less liable to attract anger, such as adopting the Mr.Rogers style, but sometimes that can be too soft, depending on the context. You'll have to decide when that's appropriate for yourself.

Also, bear in mind that while sometimes your viewpoints and arguments will gather hatred no matter what you do, and it can seem hopeless to express your views, as though it does no good; there are many more neutral lurkers than there are people who engage with you directly, and you'll be having an outsized impact on that group just by having that counter arguement or viewpoint available for them to compare, which may unknowingly be changing minds for the better.

[–] BonerMan@ani.social 20 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Maybe its their right to tell you your opinions suck in their eyes

Also "liberals", using that therm for US democrat voters will make you look like a Trump supporter in the eyes of basically everyone.

[–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I see you've never seen the other half of Lemmy, aka "the tankies." They know exactly what op means by liberals and they hate them more than they hate conservatives.

[–] BonerMan@ani.social 6 points 1 month ago

Oh, ive seen lemmygrad, but i don't count them as people.

[–] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 4 points 1 month ago

Although they use it the same way, anyone outside the reactionary in-group.

[–] within_epsilon@beehaw.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Liberal has an overloaded definiton. OP may have used liberal as an American Conservative might. I prefer using the term to describe the philosophy.

The term "right" is associated with Liberalism. Property rights is a Liberal idea and has included the right to own a human as a slave or to vote in an election for representation. The "marketplace of ideas" and "invisible hand of the free-market" are liberal ideas. The ideas have been assimilated by various political factions to suit their vision.

I would argue you have autonomy to tell me my ideas suck. I have Anarchist ideas like consensus, mutual aid and autonomy. I have the autonomy to choose goals I work toward. The product of my labor is mine. Humans are strongest when working together toward common goals. Working together requires respecting the autonomy of all. All power to all people.

Voting Republican or Democrat grows harder as both support a hierarchy where a Palestinian baby does not have the same right to life as an Israeli baby. With first-past-the-post voting, refusing to vote Democrat means being a Trump supporter. If it is troubling that the reality of the voting system does not capture the consent of the governed, maybe Liberalism isn't for you. The system is working as intended.

[–] BonerMan@ani.social -3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Liberal is just used as a dog whistle in USA language it doesn't have meaning anymore.

[–] within_epsilon@beehaw.org 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Liberal being a dog whistle is equivalent to Anarchy being a dog whistle. If words lack meaning there is nothing to discuss.

[–] BonerMan@ani.social 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Oh the word doesn't lack meaning, US people just verbally rape the word as a dog whistle.

[–] within_epsilon@beehaw.org 1 points 4 weeks ago

I can agree that the current usage imparts more effort during conversation to establish a consensus of definitions. My hypothesis is that the effort for that establishment scales non-polynomially.

I wonder if there is research on how many people can walk away from a conversation with consensus of definitions. My guess is less than 20.

[–] Mechaguana@programming.dev 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Get used to it, anarchists pick losing fights against the whole world

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's cool, the whole world is about to pick a fight itself.

[–] Mechaguana@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago
[–] Aoife@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

tbh like, have you tried any other social media? lemmy's honestly pretty cool for anarchists comparatively, i suppose except for the fact that it's too small to spend all your tine in explicitly anarchist spaces. Yeah it's not amazing but that's pretty nuch inevitable with any large and relatively diverse group of people

[–] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 month ago

I have, lemmy is better than most. Better than most is still annoying.

[–] MalReynolds@slrpnk.net 13 points 1 month ago

Annoying being an anarchist (or variants, dv incoming) in life, pretty standard, every time I've tried, that's your moral/ethical choice, stand by, take strength from whatever you do, and change what you can.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

You're wrong, having any firm opinion is annoying on Lemmy. Everyone here is the most difficult person in their social circle and we will throw hands

[–] AnarchistsForKamala@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago
if we want anything to change
we've got to do it on our own
just know
you're not alone
[–] Skydancer@pawb.social 8 points 1 month ago

If you think being anarchist on Lemmy (or anywhere else, really) is annoying, try being openly vegan!

In all seriousness, having strong convictions or unusual identities and being open about them will always draw strong reactions. People don't generally like being challenged, and will make it as painful as possible for anyone that pushes back on their lifestyle and assumptions about the world. Anarchists, MLs, vegetarians, free software advocates, environmental activists, atheists, anti-car advocates, trans people, non binaries, and asexuals all experience this on a constant basis.

You're then left with a choice - be less open, or be ready to live with those reactions and start preparing emotionally for only a partial victory when the most liberal of your "allies" inevitably betray those convictions. The second option is hard. Really hard. We need the people willing to make that choice though, and the people able to get back up and keep fighting after that gut punch are needed even more.

Without the trans people and drag queens that fought at Stonewall and since, gay and lesbian acceptance wouldn't be where it is in the US and Western Europe. That battle is still being fought in much of the rest of the world. The list of betrayals by the LG community against queer and trans people is far too long to list, and the battle for trans rights even in the US looks to have a long and bloody future (and the outlook is no less grim across the pond).

Even when they aren't defeated, every delay of a coal mine, oil pipeline, or fracking project buys time for hundreds of millions of climate refugees expected as our world warms. Without those protest actions, we wouldn't even see half measures like the Inflation Reduction Act or the half implementations of COP climate pledges. For those future climate refugees, even if they're still forced out, that's extra years of a liveable home.

The impact of Veganism on animal welfare is more complicated due to the need to weigh the way animal treatment degrades even further as profit goes down against the decreased number of animals that do the suffering (which is itself questionable as decreased profitability means more meat consumption by less wealthy people, who are far more numerous). The increasing number of vegetarians, growing use of plant milks, and plant-based meat substitutes that even some meat eaters use wouldn't exist without the years of Vegan activism, research, and providing an early market for plant based products. One of the biggest impacts is probably one of the least recognized - TVP mixed in with chicken or beef in the global south to stretch the same amount of meat to more meals because it's cheaper.

Every one of these examples has taken decades, and represents only a partial victory. Every one is a struggle that's still ongoing. Every one still faces the same kind of name calling and resistance you're experiencing. So stick to your guns, if you can, as long as you can. It matters. It makes a difference. But it takes a really, really long time and is annoying as fuck. At least you can take some comfort in the fact that your detractors wouldn't be lashing out if you hadn't pricked their consciences.

[–] Fleur_@lemm.ee 8 points 1 month ago

I have a theory that the more reasonable the political beliefs the less attention they garner and thus don't become as popular. No one wants to have a boring conversation about things that are just objectily good. The people want discourse!

[–] Jumi@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

The world thinks black and white these days. Any bit of nuance is incomprehensible for many

[–] TommySoda@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Welcome to humanity, I guess. We're full of contractions and no matter your opinion, someone will hate you for it.

I wouldn't worry too much about it and just focus on your own beliefs first. You'll never start a conversation with someone or change their opinion if you only tell them how they are wrong. And I'm not just trying to single you out. In fact, the people you are complaining about do the same thing. As soon as someone's beliefs are put into questions they will do anything to defend it no matter how irrational it is and will even contradict themselves just to prove that one belief.

As an example, unless you're a straight up piece of shit or a bigot I can't find a reason to actually support innocent people getting killed or hurt. But if someone supported a person/people before shit got worse, they'll try and justify it and believe there must be a reason. It's kinda like a toxic relationship. Someone will stay in a relationship with someone for years with abuse, but because they love them they'll try and justify it and believe they must have deserved it. It's really easy to see shit from the outside, but from the inside you want to believe there is a reason and that you are right. No matter what. Because if you're wrong, what do you even stand for?

[–] BonerMan@ani.social 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Welcome to humanity, I guess. We're full of contractions and no matter your opinion, someone will hate you for it.

Counter argument! Saying you like to eat cake will probably not give you hate from sane people.

[–] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Assuming you mean a cake that involves eggs, milk and/or butter, I'd bet you could find some vegans who would be angry.

[–] sepiroth154@feddit.nl 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

And if you made it with fake eggs, milk and/or butter, you would make even more people angry!

[–] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nah, I like using chickpea water, oat milk and margarine for my baking.

[–] sepiroth154@feddit.nl 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Then you are not who I am talking about.

[–] LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 month ago

NGL I do think less of people who eat cake if I'm honest. Not like super openly and I'd never use that as judgement, but gut feeling-wise? Yeah

[–] Skydancer@pawb.social 2 points 1 month ago

Marie Antoinette would like a word with you ...

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

That's fucking disgusting. Ground up murdered plants and chicken ovulation. I hate you.

[–] BonerMan@ani.social 2 points 1 month ago

See, you love me!

[–] magnetosphere@fedia.io 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)
[–] Aoife@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 1 month ago

Marxist-leninist

[–] zzz711@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Likely referring to the lemmy.ml instance. We tend to have a reputation of being tankie.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 5 points 1 month ago

They're using it more broadly, for M-Ls in general.

[–] YeetPics@mander.xyz 4 points 1 month ago

It's hard being anything these days because actions speak a lot louder than your internal ego.

Reassess your values, then reassess your interactions with strangers.

Hahah I feel you. I completely block filtered any word to do with the israeli occupation of gaza because no one wants genuine discourse on that subject. It’s all attacks and angry.

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

As a centrist on Lemmy I feel you exactly. The political atmosphere here is so much more diverse than Reddit that 90% of people disagree with anything you say.

[–] humblebun@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

government

You're not the right kind of anarchist

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

For using the word government??? What kind of crazy gatekeeping is this?

[–] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 17 points 1 month ago

You’re not the right kind of anarchist

I think doing this is unkind and wasting a chance to educate a (potential) companion.

@OP When you use "goverment" instead of state, some people get reminded of american right wingers and right-wing libertarians which use that word most often in the public discourse. Most anarchist use different vocabulary like "state" because its clearer defined and because it is based on anarchist theory that goes back hundreds of years. Personally I think its pretty clear what you are talking about in that sentence and its unfair to call you "not the right kind of anarchist" because of that.