this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
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[–] Ozymati 239 points 1 year ago (8 children)

It occurs to me that Kutcher and co might not have had access to the court proceedings, testimony, and evidence, but might have had a lot of access to Masterton's side of the story.

It also occurs to me that being friends with people is complicated and that bad people emotionally loan shark a lot - maybe they felt obligated to send letters of support because they were being guilt tripped about all he'd done for them or because they think being a good friend is supporting no matter what (aka being an enabler).

All that said, Kutcher's a grown up adult who should have been able to predict that supporting a sex abuser is going to conflict with being involved in an anti-sex abuse organization.

[–] Doorbook@lemmy.world 87 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It is a pattern, he had done the same thing before.

From Wikipedia:

"In November 2011, Kutcher received heavy criticism for his tweet in response to the Jerry Sandusky child sexual abuse scandal, calling the firing of Penn State football coach Joe Paterno "in poor taste". Kutcher subsequently turned over management of his Twitter account to his team at the Katalyst Media company."

Edit:

The more I read his past I find more disturbing statement that shows red flags.

"Bixler and others have cited additional ways in which Kutcher showed questionable behavior in the past, specifically pointing to a 2003 video of the actor speaking on his MTV show “Punk’d” about actress Hilary Duff. In the video, Kutcher says Duff, who was a minor at the time, is “one of the girls that we’re all waiting for to turn 18. Along with the Olsen twins.”"

[–] pulaskiwasright@lemmy.ml 40 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Back then, that was a pretty damn normal thing for people to say. It’s really awful that that it was so normal, but hopefully most people regret saying things like that now.

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[–] aceshigh@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago

danny was already convicted of the rapes when kutcher wrote the letter, saying that danny was an outstanding citizen.

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[–] jkmooney@kbin.social 201 points 1 year ago (27 children)

I don't know, this person has done a lot of decent things in his life. I'm not inclined to judge him by his worst decision.

[–] Backspacecentury@kbin.social 139 points 1 year ago (9 children)

While I would tend to agree, if I'm reading this correctly, they sent the letters for the sentencing... meaning he was already convicted of rape and they were pleading for leniency for an old rapist buddy, like within the last few months. That is a really bad look no matter how you slice it.

[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 169 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

He's also an old friend.

I don't believe in guilt by association. Asking for leniency for an old friend to a judge, and he didn't get it, doesn't make them monsters or rapists by proxy.

If our culture demands every felon be shunned by their friends and family members going forward, then end the perverse charade and just kill everyone upon a felony conviction.

Masterson did a very bad thing, some friends wrote letters to inform the judge that that isn't all he is and to consider that, not out of malice, but out of compassion.

Man, the internet has absolutely destroyed the concept of nuance. Then again, we only see our "justice," lol, system as a way to turn the screws on bad people... that our society made, btw. Wanton spectator cruelty without the guilt. Not even a hint of attempts at rehabilitation, and just about everyone roots for a parolee's failure to confirm their biases.

Advocating maximum cruelty be inflicted on a perpetrator shouldn't be confused with compassion for the victim. Americans largely ignore that distinction, because it's convenient, easy, and pleasurable to revel in cruelty and call it kindness.

[–] chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 60 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Or... we could accept that Masterson RAPED people, and maybe don't give him any support, regardless of his past actions. We don't need to hold out a hand for the fallen rapist. There are too many people in the world that genuinely need help that wasting even an iota of effort on a rapist is a slap in the face to them, not to mention the people the rapist has harmed. There is no nuance.

[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

Thank you for making my point.

Masterson did RAPE people. Now, do we want to punish him and rehabilitate him, or get our vengeance boner on and beat on him because that hilariously makes our society feel virtuous?

So much for society demonstrating being better than than those that violate its laws. Blood! Blood! More blood! Give us bloooood!

[–] lingh0e@lemmy.film 67 points 1 year ago (24 children)

Don't be glib. If it came out that my oldest friend wqs not only a rapist, but also used his fame and religion to silence the victims and avoid prosecution... AND I was involved with an organization with the express purpose of stopping sex abuse... I'd absolutely tell that friend to pound sand.

There were multiple times when I learned that friends of mine were sexually assaulted, some of those times were by people I considered friends. There's zero chance that I'd do anything to "put in a good word" for the rapists I once called friends, because their actions in my company have ZERO baring on how they acted in private.

Tl;Dr: If you're vouching for the upstanding nature of a convicted rapist based on your interactions when he wasn't being a duplicitous rapist... that says more about your ignorance to how terrible that person can be as opposed to the good works you saw from the rapist when they weren't raping. You're also a victim.

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[–] meco03211@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Except this isn't about Masterson. This is about Kutcher's support for him. If I have a friend that turns out to be a rapist, that's not a friend. That's someone hiding an important, deal breaking secret. If you've hidden that from me, I'm not going to tell a judge you're an otherwise good person that shouldn't be punished accordingly. If I kept that person as a friend after their rapist nature is revealed, that speaks very poorly on my judgement.

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[–] Cheems@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

Well, so I get that asking for leniency for an old buddy sure. However.. the specific crimes he committed and the organization that Ashton works for/runs whatever. That's a bad fucking look. That's a real bad fucking look. Like, that undermines a lot of shit he's done look.

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[–] Hyperreality@kbin.social 62 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Although I tend to agree, I think this was also the correct decision. He would have distracted from the good work the organisation does.

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[–] Windshear@lemmy.ca 27 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Get out of here with your reason. That's not what the internet is for. Now, would you like a torch or pitchfork?

[–] ThePantser@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (4 children)
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[–] QHC@lemmy.one 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think it's fair to judge someone directly involved with covering up a rapist when that person is also very vocal and actively involved in combating exactly that crime. That's a pretty massive lapse in judgement and more indicative of his true character than someone that had a single instance of road rage or similar emotional outburst.

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[–] Limeey@lemmy.world 101 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I don’t get what they were thinking, how could they write a character letter for a convinced rapist? “Ya but he never raped us!”

[–] Nougat@kbin.social 49 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Someone in a comment a few days ago, who was themselves asked to write such a letter for someone they knew who was charged and ultimately convicted, made an excellent observation:

Defense attorneys are very likely to have requested those character reference letters way before the case even made it to trial. So it's entirely possible that Kutcher and Kunis wrote those letters long ago, based on information they had at the time, probably thinking the charges were unfounded.

Now, obviously, the easy solution to that would be if they were to come out now and tell whether that happened or not, and make clear what they think now. Which is what I would do, but I'm also not a Hollywoo celebrity with publicists and handlers and lawyers.

[–] Philolurker@lemm.ee 95 points 1 year ago (5 children)

If I'm not mistaken, Kutcher's letter actually referenced the verdict.

[–] Nougat@kbin.social 49 points 1 year ago (9 children)
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[–] RaincoatsGeorge@lemmy.zip 42 points 1 year ago

Yeah my understanding was that these were post conviction. And if that were the case why weren’t there a bunch more letters from all the other cast members. Unless they knew. I bet Topher knew..

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[–] Anestoh@lemm.ee 87 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fuck websites that make the video follow you while you scroll.

[–] Lifecoach5000@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks for saving me a click bud

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[–] vis4valentine@lemmy.ml 80 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Well, it is not as much as a "non profit fighting human trafficking" as they sell it. It is a tech org that sells facial recognition technology to law enforcement, that doesn't really help saving kids, but rather persecute consensual and voluntary sex workers.

It is what happens when tech Bros want to try and save the world without really listening to the vulnerable people they are trying to "help".

Now his hypocrisy was exposed for defending a convicted rapist because "he was nice to me" no shit Ashton, im sure Epstein was also nice to his friends.

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[–] sndmn@lemmy.ca 65 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wonder how many others were raped by Danny but didn't get their day in court?

[–] Hiuhokiguess@reddthat.com 22 points 1 year ago

That’s the real question, highly likely there’s others.

[–] jballs@sh.itjust.works 65 points 1 year ago (6 children)

It's a personal pet peeve of mine when articles reference documents with no link. I prefer to read stuff for myself and come to my own conclusions.

Link to the letters in question

#Asthon Kutcher's letter#

Honorable Judge Olmedo,

My name is Ashton Kutcher I am an actor, investor, philanthropist, and most importantly a father. I met Danny Masterson when I was 20 years old in 1998. He instantly became a friend, dedicated co worker, and role model to me. And has remained as such for 25 years.

As a friend, Danny has been nothing but a positive influence on me. He's an extraordinarily honest and intentional human being. Over 25 year relationship I don't ever recall him lying to me. He's taught me about being direct and confronting issues in life and relationships head-on, resolving them, and moving forward. Danny is a person that is consistently there for you when you need him. We've traveled around the world together, raised our daughters together, and shared countless family moments. Not only is he a good friend to me I've witnessed him be a good friend to others and the kind of brother others would be lucky to have.

As a role model, Danny has consistently been an excellent one. I attribute not falling into the typical Hollywood life of drugs directly to Danny. Any time that we were to meet someone or interact with someone who was on drugs, or did drugs, he made it clear that that wouldn't be a good person to be friends with. And for me, that was an implication that if I were to do drugs, he wouldn't want to be friends with me, which is something I never would want to risk or jeopardize. I am grateful to him for that positive peer pressure. He also set an extraordinaryy standard around how you tteat other people. There was an incident where we were at a pizza parlor and a belligerent man entered who is berating his girlfriend. We had never met or seen these people before, but Danny was the first person to jump to the defense of this girl. It was an incident he didn't have to get involved i:i but proactively chose to because the way this man was behaving was not right. He has always treated people with decency, equality, and generosity.

After 9-11 Danny was a huge advocate for support of the Firefighters effected by the event, rallying his friends and coworkers to pitch in however they could. Danny had his daughter a year before I had mine. He set a standard of being a hands on dad. We have spent countless

hours together with our kids and he is among few people that I would trust to be alone with my son and daughter. He's also a dedicated and loyal husband with unwavering commitment to his wife.

We have spent hundreds of hours working together. Danny takes his job seriously. He is kind, courteous, and hard working. He treated everyone from the grips to the teamsters to the actors to the caterers as equals. He showed up on time all the time and always pulled his weight. We have also traveled around the world together promoting our work. I can honestly say that no matter where we were, or who we were with, I never saw my friend be anything other than the guy I have described.

While I'm aware that the judgement has been cast as guilty on two counts of rape by force and the victims have a great desire for justice. I hope that my testament to his character is taken into consideration in sentencing. I do not believe he is an ongoing harm to society and having his daughter raised without a present father would a tertiary injustice in and of itself. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Best,

Ashton Kutcher

[–] meco03211@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't ever recall him lying to me.

That's fair. I can't remember the last time I asked of my friends, or they asked of me, "Forcibly raped anyone recently?" I'm quite certain anyone who would forcibly rape another person would answer that honestly. Really this is all Ashton's fault. Had he just asked that question, we could have got this mess taken care of long ago.

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[–] jballs@sh.itjust.works 32 points 1 year ago (2 children)

#Kurtwood Smith's (who played the dad/Red Foreman) letter#

Dear Judge Olmedo:

My name is Kurtwood Smith. I have been a professional actor for 57 years, the last 43 years working primarily in film and television. It is as an actor that I came to know Danny Masterson.

I should mention that I am aware that Danny has been convicted of two counts of forcible rape and is awaiting sentencing.

I have known Danny since the spring of 1998, when we began filming the television show That 70s Show. We worked on the show for eight years and I consider Danny to be a good friend. Our friendship revolved around work. Primarily because of our age difference we didn't socialize much outside of work but I saw hi every day on the job whether we had scenes together or not.

I believe Danny to be a wonderful actor. When working together I always found him to be prepared, inventive, and responsive to suggestions from the director, myself, and other actors. Danny was also very enjoyable to be around. He has a quick wit and a good sense of humor. I always looked forward to working on scenes with Danny. I should mention that he was extremely popular with the crew. He was usually the first actor to learn every crew member's name, what their job was, and how it related to his job. Danny was the leader among his contemporaries in the cast. He was a tad older and much more experienced and he took that position seriously.

During the eight years we did the show. we never had the problems some other shows had with their younger cast members. After the show ended in 2006 I didn't see much of Danny, except for occasional events, until almost 10 years later, when I began playing a recurring character on The Ranch. Danny was one of the stars of the show. I was happy to be working with him again. It was also great to see his family. If you know Danny, you know his family.

I have known his parents and younger brothers and sister since we started work on That 70s Show. They are a very close knit family; they seem to care very much for each other and work to help one another succeed.

Danny was now married and the father of a beautiful little girl. It was a treat to spend some time with him at work and to be around him and his family. I had met his wife while we were still shooting That 70s Show, although they were not married at the time.

I found that Danny treated all women on the show with respect, not only the women in the cast, but women on the crew as well. It was my observation that he treated the woman he married in a respectful and loving way. Later, when we were working on The Ranch. I was aware that, not only were they a happy couple, but he was a wonderful father to his daughter.

I had the opportunity to watch Danny with his daughter. At the time she was maybe two or three years old. It was so clear how much he loved her and how delighted he was with her. He was so patient and easygoing with her. At one point, when she became fussy, he joked with her and made faces and she calmed down and was laughing. She clearly loved her daddy.

I consider Danny a talented, hardworking, giving actor. I have viewed him being respectful and considerate to those he has worked with. He has been a leader and positive force among his peers. He has seemed loving and caring, not only towards his wife and daughter, but his family at large.

For all the reasons I have mentioned I consider myself fortunate to have had Danny Masterson in my life.

Sincerely yours,

Kurtwood Smith

[–] idiomaddict@feddit.de 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That’s a weird fucking letter. It doesn’t go far enough to fully endorse his character because of the repeated distance, but it’s too positive to be damning with faint praise. It reads like he wanted to help without going out on a limb

[–] Duranie@midwest.social 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think that was a smartly written letter from the standpoint that he told the truth of his observations from his perspective, but made no attempt to sway opinion of Danny's character. Under the circumstances if you really feel compelled to submit a letter, it's the honest way of doing it.

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[–] jballs@sh.itjust.works 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

#Mila Kunis's letter#

To The Honorable Judge Olmedo

I am writing this character letter on behalf of my dear friend, Danny Masterson, with whom I have had the privilege of sharing a significant part of my life. My name is Mila Kunis, and I am an actress, and I believe it is essential to share the remarkable influence Danny has had on my life and the lives of others.

I first met Danny during our time working together on That 70's Show, and from the very beginning, I could sense his innate goodness and genuine nature. Throughout our time together, Danny has proven to be an amazing friend, confidant, and, above all, an outstanding older brother figure to me. His caring nature and ability to offer guidance have been instrumental in my growth both personally and professionally.

One of the most remarkable aspects of Danny's character is his unwavering commitment to discouraging the use of drugs. His influence on me in this regard has been invaluable. In an industry where the pressures and temptations of substance use can be overwhelming, Danny played a pivotal role in guiding me away from such destructive paths. His dedication to avoiding all substances has inspired not only me but also countless others in our circle. Danny's steadfastness in promoting a drug-free lifestyle has been a guiding light in my journey through the entertainment world and has helped me prioritize my well-being and focus on making responsible choices. His genuine concern for those around him and his commitment to leading by example make him an outstanding role model and friend.

Danny's role as a husband and father to his daughter has been nothing short of extraordinary. Witnessing his interactions with his daughter has been heartwarming and enlightening. He prioritizes his family, education, and happiness above all else, demonstrating his unwavering commitment to being a loving and responsible parent. As a father, he leads by example, instilling in her values that reflect integrity, compassion, and respect for others.

Moreover, Danny has consistently displayed a profound sense of responsibility and care for those around him. He demonstrates grace and empathy in every situation, be it within the entertainment industry or in our personal lives. His steady support and understanding presence make him a reliable source of guidance and comfort for all of us.

Danny Masterson's warmth, humor, and positive outlook on life have been a driving force in shaping my character and the way I approach life's challenges. His unwavering commitment to being an exceptional older brother figure to me has had a transformative impact on my life, instilling in me a sense of self-belief and encouraging me to aim for greatness, but all while maintaining a sense of humility.

In conclusion, I wholeheartedly vouch for Danny Masterson's exceptional character and the tremendous positive influence he has had on me and the people around him. His dedication to leading a drug-free life and the genuine care he extends to others make him an outstanding role model and friend.

Please feel free to reach out if you require any further information or clarification.

Sincerely,

Mila Kunis

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[–] jballs@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I thought this one was the most interesting as it addresses his crimes head on.

#Debra Jo Rup’s (who played the mom/Kitty Foreman) letter#

Dear Judge Olmedo,

My name is Debra, I am 72 years old, and I live in the mountains In Western Massachusetts. I am writing this letter on behalf of Danny Masterson.

I have known Danny and his family since 1998 when I began working with him on "That 70's Show". I am aware that Danny is convicted of 2 counts of forceable rape and, though it is so hard for me to wrap my head around this, I respect the law and the court. I always have.

But I would like to tell you about the young man I know. Danny was the leader of the "kids" on our show. He had the most acting experience and was a little bit older. He was well liked and very respected. One of the first things Danny did with them was to sit them all down (he had a little meeting) and had them al make a pact that no one would do drugs because of the nature of our show. The spotlight would be on them and he wanted everyone to succeed. I remember thinking that it was such a smart thing to do and something I never would have thought of. As a result, you never saw them in the tabloids. Danny made sure of that and I was so appreciative. They all kept their word.

Danny was always respectful and kind. On show days when the camera crew would come in, Danny was the one that shook each camera man's hand before we started. He knew everyone's name, where they lived and about their families. I did not. He was loved. Over the years Danny is one of the few that came to support me by seeing my shows in the theater. He brought his family sometimes. And it was a joy. And so appreciated. One night we went to dinner, he had dragged another cast member, his father and some friends to see me, and it was dark and late after theater. I had to get home in New York City so Danny called an Uber, paid for it and escorted me out. There are so many instances of things like this. He was just like that. Respectful and kind.

Wilmer Valderama asked the cast of 70's Show to go to his high school graduation. Danny and I were the only ones to go. I remember looking at him and dying. It was outside, in the valley, really hot, and he was a "V" alphabetically. We laughed so hard during that. It's a really nice memory. Danny just always showed up to support.

I knew Danny's family through work. I had worked with his brother Chris on another show and always saw his family hanging out in his dressing room. Danny's dressing room was above mine and Danny loved music. Many times I found myself going upstairs to ask him to turn it down and was always greeted with an apology, a grin and an instant fix. It's these little things that come to mind when I think of Danny. I later did his show ''The Ranch", he called me at home in Massachusetts. I hadn't done tv in awhile, and he offered it to me. I was so grateful and touched. I loved hearing him play with his daughter in the hallways - it was an awesome giggle.

So thank you for allowing me to-tell you about the Danny Masterson that I love I just read this letter back. It's so hard for me to express o paper but I understand that he is facing a lengthy sentence and I really wanted to tell you about these moments. He would take the time to do it for me.

Sincerely,

Debra Jo Rupp

[–] SpookyUnderwear@eviltoast.org 28 points 1 year ago (5 children)

These letters are wild. Why? Why get involved? He's been convicted. Just stay out of it. Now you simply look like you're defending a convicted rapist. I don't care if it was my best friend. I'm not going to write a letter for a rapist asking for the judge to go easy on him because he was always nice to me.

[–] frogfruit@discuss.online 22 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Probably pressured by the church of scientology

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[–] SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wow, there a a lot of people here defending a rapist apologist.

Disappointing.

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 126 points 1 year ago (9 children)

People are complicated. We can say he did good things for kids while also doing bad things like defending Masterson. We can admit it must be hard for him to condemn his friend while also still saying he still needed to.

People can do both good and bad things, we can say the good things he did are good while also saying he shouldn't have done bad things.

[–] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

People like you are not good for my pitchfork and torch business.

[–] phillaholic@lemm.ee 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

He could have not written a letter of support or condemnation. Sometimes no comment is the right way.

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[–] nehal3m@sh.itjust.works 46 points 1 year ago (1 children)

His sex abuse organization was anti-child?

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[–] stopthatgirl7@kbin.social 35 points 1 year ago (2 children)

He and Kunis are learning the hard lesson of “shutting up is free.”

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[–] FoundTheVegan@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The fact that Ashton was not aware about the numerous sexual assaults coming from the church of scientology is really damming. Sure, he can be biased about long term friend/coworker, it's messed up to write charcter letters after the victim testimony when the went in to the details of what Masterson did, but to turn a blind eye to scientology? And you care about victims? About. trafficking? About SA? Fuck off.

Clearly they were never serious about Thorn and was likely only a PR move. At least Debra Jo Rupp and Kurtwood Smith haven't spent the last couple years telling people to believe victims. Still gross, but Ashton put him self on this pedestal. Kunis to a lesser extent, since she wasnt a founder. But I am just so disappointed at all of these people.

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