this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Support and meta community for Beehaw. Ask your questions about the community, technical issues, and other such things here.

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For a refresher on our philosophy, see also What is Beehaw?, The spirit of the rules, and Beehaw is a Community


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Beehaw is a community of individuals and therefore does not have any specific political affiliation. At this point in time, we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are. I would suspect that many of them would identify as progressive because we are explicitly a safe space for minorities. What we stand for and the space that we're trying to make is compatible with many forms of politics. Unfortunately some political groups build themselves around and choose to elevate or tolerate hate speech. These are the only political groups that we are incompatible with. If any of it was unclear in any of the other posts, I will restate it all here. Beehaw does not tolerate hate speech. Beehaw is an explicitly safe space. We center and promote kindness because that is what we see and love in the world.

Some of the instances that we have chosen to defederate with have explicit political stances and ideologies. Their political stance and ideology had nothing to do with the choice to defederate. The choice to defederate was based on the amount of hate speech present on the instance and/or explicitly endorsing it. Since hate speech is not controlled on the instances that these users come from, we cannot expect them to change their behavior when participating on our instance. While users may exist on some of these platforms who do not spread hate speech, the choice to defederate is made to reduce the burden on our moderators and admins. Occasionally these instances or users from these instances will point their fingers at Beehaw and make claims about our political leanings or whether certain kinds of politics are banned. To be explicitly clear, the only kind of politics that are banned here are those which enable hate speech such as fascism.

Politics on the internet


Many, if not most discussions of politics on the internet are poisoned by virtue signaling. When they are not poisoned by virtue signaling, discussions are often just ways to vent emotions. I believe the reason for this is the platforms themselves and the incentives to engage online. On the internet I can adjust my level of anonymity. An adjustable level of anonymity allows me to change how I speak to others while simultaneously mitigating or removing any consequences to myself. This of course varies based on the platform and what I'm attempting to accomplish, but in the context of speaking with others on the internet, I can be relatively consequence free to say whatever I want on most major platforms. Particularly negative or hateful behavior might cause me to be banned off of a platform, but through the use of technology or other means, I can simply create another account (or migrate to another platform) and continue the same speech. In malicious terms, I do not have to worry about managing someone else's emotions or my connection to them.

In real life, on the other hand, it is not as easy to pass myself off as someone else. I must be much more aware of how I speak to others because consequences can be much more dire. When discussing politics with others, I may alienate them or myself and so I may choose to be more open to listen rather than soapboxing. The people I'm interacting with may be a regular part of my life and may be people I have come to respect. Understanding how they think might be vitally important to maintaining or improving our connection.

I am presenting the internet and real life as two ends of a spectrum but it is more complicated than that. There are people who are very visible and tied to their identities on the internet just as there are people in real life who use false identities created to mask their true identity. Interactions vary in level of connection, platform, and who happens to know who we are in other spaces on the internet. There are plenty of people who talk on the internet about politics with the explicit goal of changing the minds of others. Some of these individuals are not using this as an outlet to manage their own emotions. These generalizations are presented in this way because I need to talk about these patterns in the context of the platform Lemmy. I'm asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

I would encourage all of you to think about incentives when presented with political drama online. It is easy to get engaged because politics has a direct and often scary effect on our lives. In this community, it is not difficult to find individuals who are regularly marginalized by politicians. Especially for these minorities, it is completely valid to get emotionally invested in politics and I would personally encourage doing so on some level, but we need to think carefully about the other parties present in a conversation and whether they are willing to listen or incentivized to do so. For the people who are hiding behind anonymity and posting to vent their emotional frustrations with the system they are likely not invested in the community we are growing here and it may be appropriate and healthy to ignore or disengage with these folks.

Forking


It is in this political context that forking from the main Lemmy development has been presented. People are quick to point to potential upsides of forking, but the upsides are an after thought presented as a means to bolster or justify forking. These justifications are for what is ultimately a moral issue. The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral. To anyone posing this question, I would ask them to consider what other technology they use every day and to trace the roots back to each invention along the path to today's day and age. The world has a colonialist history, rife with violence and immoral behavior. Unless you retreat the woods and recreate technologies yourself from scratch, it's impossible to live in a modern society without benefiting from technology built on countless dead bodies in history.

We do not have the technical expertise to create a new tool from scratch - all we can do is leverage tools that already exist to create communities like this. At the time we created this instance, the service we decided on was Lemmy. We did so with awareness of discussions around the politics of the main instance and developers. I think we've done a decent job outlining what we intend to do with this instance and explicitly made strong stances against hate speech and other behavior we do not agree with, including where we disagree with them. When taken in the context of computing in general, these political leanings are also not unique in their social and political harm as compared to some of the tech giants out there. The same is true in comparison to some of the famous tech inventors and innovators; in comparison to the history of computer technology; in comparison to the exploitation and problematic mining of rare earth minerals used in technology; in comparison to the damages we cause to the earth to create the energy used to power our servers. We can follow this path of thinking back all that we want to, and ultimately it's just not a particularly fruitful discussion to zero in on whether the political leaning of the main developers and instance are in perfect alignment with what we want to accomplish. We are not explicitly endorsing their viewpoint by using their software and we are not tied to using this software forever.

I cannot stress enough how much bandwidth has been taken up by these discussions in recent days. It been brought up as frequently as every few hours across Discord, Matrix, inbox replies, comment replies, new threads, and other forms of communication. We're currently dealing with a lot of other issues like keeping the server running, expanding to add more communities, moderating the communities amidst a huge influx of users posting and reply content from other instances, managing expenses, optimizing our server, planning for the future, and so much more. We cannot entertain philosophical discussions on all of the wonderful things we 'could do' when we're struggling to keep up with what we're already currently doing. We have not yet received a serious proposal for a fork which details operational needs when it comes to the maintenance, support, and resources needed to accomplish and maintain it. Simply put we do not believe a fork is necessary at this time.

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[–] Synthclair@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it possible to have a list of de-federated instances from Beehive? I think it may be good for transparency, even if I am pretty satisfied about how things are being done here!

[–] daguito81@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Go to the bottom of the page, click on the Instances link and you'll se 2 lists, all federated instances and all defederated instances.

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[–] pimeys@lemmy.nauk.io 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would love to have this as a generalized text to be shared between instances. I'd use the general mood of this post as basis for the rules for all my instances. Maybe on GitHub, which then can be edited through pull requests and discussed.

I originally joined Beehaw, but decided to run my own instance because why not. I still prefer subscribing the communities in Beehaw just due to this way of thinking. I hope the moderation works for you and doesn't get too bad.

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You're welcome to take my text and use it as a starting point for self-organizing around governance to fit your needs.

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[–] SomeGuyNamedPaul@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Part of the divisiveness of our politics today is that people segregate off into their echo chambers where extreme positions are rewarded, amplify, and a purity contest of one-upmanship emerges. When you gather people to talk about issues rather than team affiliations the exteme divisiveness subsides because it becomes less about personal identity.

Also, some people are just dicks and it's better if they're not provided with a safe space where intolerable behavior is reinforced as acceptable.

[–] GraceGH@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also, some people are just dicks and it’s better if they’re not provided with a safe space where intolerable behavior is reinforced as acceptable.

Unfortunately, they're capable and willing to make their own safe spaces for themselves (and arguably did before a lot of us were, technically "truth" social is a mastodon instance). I'd rather them there than here though, especially if they have no willingness or intention to change.

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[–] dax@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

A few years ago it turned out a very promising python documentation library was using another library for a core aspect of the docstring comment parsing subsystem. I don't remember the names of either of these two, but as it turns out, the person who wrote the docstring comment parsing subsystem was someone who liked using the Nazi-Facing-Swastika as his repeating background image on his site and as textual glyphs to denote things like list items. He claimed it was everyone being too stupid to know he was using it in an eastern context, but he had an email like firstname_lastname88@gmail or whatever.

The point I made then is that even if FirstName LastName was running into a culture-shock situation, and even if they just happened to like the number 88 - or maybe they were born in 88 - there was simply no way I wanted to tie myself or my employer to that person. Nobody is going to extend any grace.

I guess I don't even think that is necessarily a bad thing. Why should people stanning genocidal authoritarian regimes be extended grace? Is it only okay if they can give us something, like a nazi scientist building space rockets? Is it simply because they gave you something you can't get anywhere else without paying more than you'd want to? I actually don't have an answer for this. I felt fine telling PossibleNazi88 No, and AccidentallyLinkedCompositionalLibraryAuthor Sorry, I'll pass, and in large part that is because Sphinx does exist and I can use it, even if I'd prefer not to. But what if this library were the only one? Would I just hold my nose and use it anyway?

Same with Lemmy - can I get it in a different package? A similar fediverse community package, without the gross genocide cooties all over it? This is a practical question; maybe this is reason enough to want to host a kbin instance over lemmy, eventually.

But philosophically: What if the next fediverse community package is from a Patriotic American, who has no problem with all the first peoples genocides and chattel slavery history because they believe in America so much that it's an intrinsic part of their identity?

It sucks because I want to make everything better, and I believe that to be true of Beehaw administration for sure as well, but navigating this shit is hard and even if you're principled you're probably only principled insofar as you're aware.

Conversely, doing the thing you know to be wrong just because the alternative is hard and maybe impossible isn't good either. But maybe you can use the genocide-fan's product to do more good than harm? But now you're back to nazi scientists making moon rockets, and nobody is happy.


I guess I'm just rambling while I admire the problem.

[–] nfld0001@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I definitely agree and feel with the arguments you have here. It’s a challenging issue to resolve. On one hand there’s the practical Rock of “transitioning to another asset and engaging in the practical burden that shifting gears brings,” and in this circumstance, that would come with the extra caveat of trying to commit to that transition during a busy period as is. On the other hand is the moral Hard Place of “you’re working with an asset actively developed by someone or something with known issues—are you willing to accept, and to some degree associate, with that?” I don’t feel like there’s a clear-cut path that’s both morally bright and practically realistic, and it’s not the kind of thing that makes me dance with joy.

If nothing else, it’s good to respect that we have a dilemma in our hands. Whichever way the community decides to collectively stand, both in the short and long term, I’m happy that we’re having this conversation at all. I think it’s important to acknowledge what we have and have a meaningful discussion around it. Putting our heads in the sand and pretending it’s a non-issue at best delays the issue and allows it to fester.

navigating this shit is hard and even if you’re principled you’re probably only principled insofar as you’re aware.

That’s a great point I almost forgot to highlight. Even if I think I got my things sorted in such a way that I think my hands are clean in something, I typically end up finding out of nowhere that something down the line has some issues behind it that I need to resolve somehow. It’s a process that doesn’t seem to end, and it can feel exhausting sometimes.

[–] Schedar@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You’ve captured my own confusing and conflicting thoughts as well.

I have so far loved my experience here (just been a few days) beehaw is exactly what is what to see in an online community

But despite the federated nature of lemmy the code ultimately is (so I’m learning in this thread!) currently in the hands of people who are the opposite of beehaw. That’s a difficult pill to swallow.

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[–] nicholas@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Honest question: can you define ‘hate speech’? Because in theory I agree it should not be allowed however in practice it generally means ‘political ideas that I disagree with’ are banned under the guise of hate speech rules. There needs to be specific standards clarifying what the rule actually is.

[–] Laconic@beehaw.org 14 points 1 year ago

It's a stance that leads to trans people killing themselves.

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[–] Wintermute@lemmy.villa-straylight.social 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Out of curiosity, how did you come up with the current list of defederated instances? Clicking on the first several links leads me to believe most are Mastodon servers and a good chunk of them don't even exist anymore. Is the list largely based on some pre-existing list maintained elsewhere in the Fediverse?

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Some of these places used to exist and no longer do. We have also incorporated tier0 from this list. Otherwise it comes to us from other users or what we run across.

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[–] Reed@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

Another consequence of hate speech shifting from intolerable to a mainstream political opinion over the last few years. It's sad to see, and crazy to watch happen in real time.

[–] bartera@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago (13 children)

I don't pretend to change anything of how this place works, specially considering it's federated and, as you say, presumably different spaces can be forked and "set up their own rules".

I remain, however quite keen to see if the "no hate speech" is a consistent thing or simply a "hate is ok against the right targets" and "being on the other side of X issue is hate speech" (e.g.: any controversial topic such as being against a particular war, being in favor of/against political party X, expressing views opposed to government policies, not sharing a specific view by the demographic majority of the site (Usually US/UK/AUS)).

Ideally, I can set up something where I can get exposure to many views and go here and there without having to feel I'm in X circlejerk and the narrative is packet Y, that comes with all these predetermined views in this overton window.

In a way, the more I have access to, the better. Because I can move from side to side learning about the others. Obviously, this view is not shared by many and thet would gladly censor 75% of the space to preserve the right way, claiming it's "moderation". I don't disagree on moderation but I think that we're too interfered at this point that we don't even see how little room we have for discussion (which then creates very narrow discussions in different niches).

In any case, sorry for the stream of consciousness. Excited to see how all this works and hopefully I'm able to participate and gain insights from a wide array of perspectives in a wide descentralized network.

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[–] nfld0001@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Couldn't have said it better myself. I definitely appreciate this piece and the body of pieces around Beehaw's policies and philosophies. I can imagine it eats at time that's likely quite important to have in the current circumstances, but the writings are invaluable insights to consider and try to apply going forward.

The fact that we have Lemmy at all, let alone the growth of ActivityPub and federated platforms, feels like the kind of miracle that would stop Aaron Swartz from spinning in his grave. Tech often has a particularly wild way of making one face their values and pick their battles. I have issues with Amazon, for instance, but I can't stress enough how a massive chunk of the internet these days relies on Amazon Web Services to get online, and I could say likewise for Microsoft or Google. I'd swear off their services if I could and embrace a hardline FOSS stance, but if I went through with that, a lot of my employment opportunities wouldn't consider me. I could probably make it happen if push came to shove, but it would be a legitimate challenge that I'd feel a lot less secure in, and I don't exactly have the safety net to afford that.

I wouldn't consider it to be hypocritical or a bad thing to pick and choose your battles. On the contrary, I think it's a mature and necessary approach in a complicated and difficult world. I'm finding it hard to think of anything in my life that doesn't have controversy and tragedy at some point in its production or history. All of it warrants resistance and change, but if I were to give everything the drive it deserves, I think I'd turn to dust.

--

I agree that a fork isn't necessary right now. It certainly has no technical necessity—if anything, it would probably be technically worse to splinter the developer force. I can respect there's a moral argument to be made for it, and I wouldn't fault someone for preferring another platform over it. I think Beehaw has done a respectable job at philosophically separating itself from the controversy, however, and at this time, I'd say that's enough for me at least.

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[–] CooperRedArmyDog@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Question, you mention that the only instances you block allow fascism, however you have blocked both Lemmygrad and preemptively Hexbear, both of them are Communist in nature, and I feel that this is crazy to need to point out, but communism is the polar opposite to Fascism, and they are ideological opposed in every way, You will never find a more ardent anti-facist than a communist, so I feel like this is a bad faith attack on these instances. I also would like to point out that First Hexbear has not federated, nor made any plans to federate with Beehaw, over concerns with Beehaw moderation, and Lemmygrad has Rule 2. No Bigotry Rule 3. be Respectful and Rule 5. No Right Deviationists (No fascists), and they are very well enforced, and Rule 3 in particular is better enforced there than over here on Beehaw.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Anti-fascists? These people revere the likes of Mao and Stalin. In what meaningful way were Mao and Stalin different from fascists?

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[–] lwaxana_katana@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I am new to Lemmy and also to Beehaw. Does defederation mean that we can't load comments/threads/communities from defederated servers via Beehaw (and vice versa for users of instances Beehaw has defederated from)?

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