this post was submitted on 08 May 2024

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Mildly Infuriating

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Grocery stores promoting gas discounts are not helping the transition away from gas vehicles (lemmy.world)

submitted 7 months ago by BigTrout75@lemmy.world to c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world

51 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Large grocery stores around here offer cheaper gas if you shop at there store. This can be up to a dollar a gallon off.

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[–] skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de 27 points 7 months ago (5 children)

Electric vehicles aren't helping with the transition to electric vehicles. Cars are more expensive than ever. If one has a choice between an annoyingly necessary vehicle that can get them to and from work and take care of long trips, or something that costs the same (or more) and can't even get you halfway across the state on a single charge, which would one with a limited budget pick?

I have some friends that tried to take the plunge with EV. They bought one used, so some age on the traction pack. Cold-ass winter came along, the car doesn't do active thermal management of the pack. They could barely make it 24 miles between towns. Their next car will be a hybrid. Until EVs are priced similar and behave similar to ICE cars, it's going to be a slow roll to convert people.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The "transition away from gas vehicles" and the "transition to electric vehicles" aren't the same thing and shouldn't be conflated.

The bulk of the transition should be to other forms of transportation, not simply subbing out disastrous gas automobiles for only-marginally-less-disastrous electric automobiles.

[–] johntash@eviltoast.org 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

One problem is the lack of alternative transport options. In most of the US, public transport just isn't a thing. And things are too far apart for cycling to be efficient for commutes, grocery shopping, etc.

I hope that changes some day though.

[–] njordomir@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I wish more people, more ordinary non-Lemmings, understood this.

Even if you can't get everywhere with a bike, you can definitely go some places. Last year, completely on accident, I went a whole month only using my car twice. 90% of my trips were to the grocery store and other close-by destinations.

Electric cars are just an evolution of the status quo designed as a pressure valve to prevent the momentum for real change from building up.

[–] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

For further than bike distance, it's confounding why cities don't have a tram system.

If something is being moved from one place to another, and back again, you would of course look for more efficient ways to move that thing. Use a box.

When there's dozens of those things making the same trip, put them together in the same transport method. It's not complicated. Factories don't have people moving one product at a time to the next station. They have conveyor belts or similar to accomplish the task.

When needed, sure, have an electric car that someone could drive. But it's not necessary for a good portion of the population.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Why Tram? While I prefer them as well and my area has some, this is the same scenario a bus can handle, and a bus is arguably better since it can go more places and be more flexible without infrastructure costs. For most places, we need to electrify buses and figure out how to make them a more appealing choice

Trains and trains are better at scaling for more populated areas but buses need to be part of that continuum

[–] abbadon420@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The problem with buses (on busy lines), and I don't see how to overcome it, is that they get full. I'd rather have a slow traffic jam than having to let 3 or 4 buses pass you by because they are full. This is on a line that rides every 7 minutes. But on tuesdays and thursdays, you can't get a bus from my stop at 5 o'clock.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Yeah, that seems like more than enough activity to scale up to something that can handle more.

Unfortunately trams can have similar shortcomings all too easily, but I guess it’s the next step

Around here, they’re trying the approach of dedicated bus lanes. The claim is that a lot of the time it only takes one bus stuck in traffic to get behind and stuck in that problem. With a dedicated lane, the bus scales a little better, goes a little faster, is a little more likely to be on time.

[–] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

I see buses as a good method of figuring out routes when first implementing a transit system similar to how some developments leave out walking paths to see where people typically walk and install them afterwards.

Generally though, trams can allow for more passengers transported per trip and per operator than a bus. Good for high and low traffic areas with dedicated transit lanes.

Don't get me wrong - trams certainly don't replace buses. Multiple forms of transit are best practice of course. I just don't see the need for only buses or mostly buses.

As a minor detail, tires are one of the top polluters of both microplastics and noise levels in cities, and it would be nice to lower the amount of them being disintegrated in the process of moving people from place to place - be in from buses, or the larger culprit, private vehicles.

[–] Zedstrian@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 7 months ago

While many people in urban and suburban areas could effectively integrate bikes into their daily routines, it still ultimately depends where you live, given that many areas don't have safe bike lanes or are simply too rural to be able to bike as part of one's routine.

[–] 1984@lemmy.today 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Yup can confirm. Leased a new car six month ago. Wanted to get an electric, but the downsides of electric cars just didn't make sense. Much more expensive, and worse in winter. Cheaper to charge, but not at all enough to make up the huge extra cost.

When the Chinese make a cheap ev that is better than fuel cars, it's going to become more profitable than Tesla.

[–] seang96@spgrn.com 1 points 7 months ago

Chinese are already doing that. They are way above and beyond in the advancements and got the cheap labor. It's why we don't see them it would kill the automobile industry. I'm sure they have lacking safety standards too compared to other countries, but I'm sure they'd patch that up to sell them. I read they got EVs under $30k and they have the first consumer.EV with a sodium battery; this means it's more environmental friendly since it has no lithium, it doesn't have the issue with cold weather causing lower efficiency, and it's cheaper to make.

[–] HubertManne@kbin.social 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

plugin hybrids to me are an important step. If it can do 10 miles without starting to use gas and the person plugs it in they will use very little gas.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

The only problem with this idea is plugin hybrids should have been an important step. Why haven’t we already phased out pure gasoline vehicles for hybrid and plugin hybrid? We could have and should have done this when pure EVs were not yet practical.

But that time has passed. EVs are or could be practical for most uses, with current technology. Manufacturers don’t get to just build overpriced luxury vehicles and say “see, no one wants them: let’s go back to gasoline”. Not enough cheap EVs? We could if manufacturers would scale up, or if we allowed imports from China. Not enough charging stations? That’s just time and investment, and was rapidly changing at least up to Tesla’s layoffs. You don’t get to delay the build out and say “see, there’s not enough chargers”. Not enough raw materials? Huge discoveries in the last couple of years, and recycling ready to scale up as soon as enough vehicles are there. Not enough power in the grid? They only respond to steady growth in demand, and need that growth maintained over years. I suppose plug-in hybrid is better than gasoline but we’re really at the stage where EV technology is practical for most and the biggest impediment is just doing it

[–] HubertManne@kbin.social 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I mean for myself I could not plug one in and if you ever have dealt with a community like a condo getting permission to one off is only overshadowed by trying to get the place to improve the infrastructure overall in impossibility. I sorta hope incentives or regulations come along to make such changes easier.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Right, but the technology is there. The obstruction is legal/policy/who pays, so older technology shouldn’t have to be the answer.

I’m frustrated with this same issue at my ex’s condo. The entire complex is townhouses with assigned parking in front. It also has the service entrance in front, so a charger is a short cable under the side walk from a unit’s service entrance to a pedestal at their parking spot. Cheap and easy, and everyone pays their own electric bill. So why won’t they do it? Oh well, if my ex doesn’t want that fight, it’s not my problem

[–] HubertManne@kbin.social 2 points 7 months ago

well and thats a bit easier than a building style. I can't just run something in the garage. I kid you not but a guy had insulation put above his unit in the attic and they spent condo funds to have a lawyer go after it to remove it and when he fought back they had a guy take the insulation out. its freakin nuts!

[–] spongebue@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago (3 children)

and can't even get you halfway across the state on a single charge

This is the part that needs to be rethought. Depending on speed and stuff, I can go about 200 miles on a charge. Want to go farther? Fine! DC fast charging is, in fact, fast. Plug in, take a pee break, stretch for a minute, and get a bite to eat. In 20 minutes, you can get a lot of charge in most cars (granted, my Chevy Bolt needs a little more time but that battery technology is relatively obsolete)

We already stop on the road for other reasons. It's not hard to combine stops, and it will only get easier as chargers get built up. Stop pretending we need to drive 500 miles without stopping, that's dangerous anyway.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

More importantly, people should give more priority to more common needs. I plug my car in when I get home, like my phone, and just always have a charge. It is so much more convenient to never have to go to a local gas station again. Much better than older cars where it seemed like I had to go every couple of weeks.

Yes, recharging my EV is less convenient on road trips, but it’s more convenient 95+% of the time

[–] dingus@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

It's not more convenient 95% of the time if you don't live in a place where you can just plug it in all the time. Until people are able to figure out how to get widespread adoption of EV charging stations in apartments and condos, EV adoption by the general public is significantly limited.

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Want to go farther? Fine! DC fast charging is, in fact, fast

Sure, but those need to exist at the appropriate locations, and be maintained in working order - neither of which is the current reality in a lot of places.

Add to that the lack of availability of affordable EVs and you are going to have the slow adoption we currently see.

I was planning to get an EV of some sort the last time my vehicle needed to be replaced, but there were none available at the time that fit my budget and my needs.

I still intend to have one relatively soon, but the practical realities are still an impediment.

[–] skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 7 months ago

I actually see this rest stop idea as really cool advantage to bring life back to random locations across the country. Kinda like the 1950s Route 66 road tour theme that was popular back then. Create a stop with some goofy thing to look at, some food, some place to stretch, a park, a rock wall, whatever. Great opportunity to capitalism while creating fun and working around the range problem until technology improves or countries like the US get with the program and go more public transport.

As for:

Stop pretending we need to drive 500 miles without stopping, that’s dangerous anyway.

It is more a functional reality in western states, not a luxury or something to boast about. One can drive that 200 miles (likely your charge range will be less at 85MPH with a 60MPH headwind and ascending 4000 vertical feet over a few hours) without having services, utilities, or even towns. The range is a necessity to get back to civilization, let alone finding a charger or gas station.

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[–] intensely_human@lemm.ee 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

The bitterness toward those with gas cars isn’t helping either. I drive an electric now and I like it, but I hate how we’re working so hard to force people. It’s not right. Freedom is important.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Freedom of choice is certainly important but we do all have to work together for the sake of our future and our children’s future. It is certainly a good idea to set efficiency and emissions standards, including up to a controlled transition to zero emissions.

It’s not even close to a situation of forcing any customers: we’re at a stage of forcing manufacturers to improve their products and work toward a transition in 11 years, and help encourage a growing market for them to profit by it.

This is back to old arguments like:

free speech but you can’t yell “FIRE” in a coowded theater
freedom to swing your arms, that stops before you hit my face

And connected to Tragedy of the Commons.

breathable air and livable environments are something we all need in common. You have no right to take that from the rest of us

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[–] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I can't say I've seen any people 'forcing' others to go out and replace a perfectly functional combustion car with an electric one - the manufacturers maybe. Most of the conversation I see is focused on the lack of low cost options when it's time to purchase a brand new vehicle. Gas and electric both.

Once you move away from the brand new discussion, it seems pretty well agreed that keeping what you've got is the best option environmentally and financially. Buying used being a close second.

Freedom is important. But when the industry only offers you trucks and SUVs, where's your choice?

[–] asdfasdfasdf@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Actually, buying a new electric car is better for the environment than keeping your current car.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/04/new-ev-vs-old-beater-which-is-better-for-the-environment/

[–] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, like most issues we face, this is not a stand alone problem. I'll concede, over the length of ownership of the car, a brand new electric vehicle is more environmentally friendly than keeping your current combustion engine vehicle.

However, we don't live in a society where the majority can make that choice independent of other factors. EVs are more expensive across the board.

Even if the purchasing cost of an off-the-lot EV were equivalent to continued use of an older ICE across two years - most people can not afford it.

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[–] AlwaysNowNeverNotMe@kbin.social 8 points 7 months ago

I hate this shit. Groceries asking for phone numbers and cards and shit. I don't even give a shit about the unwarranted indefensible invasion of privacy. I just don't want to have to experience the interaction.

[–] Euphorazine@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Gas discounts are pretty small.

At least for Kroger, you get $0.03 baseline with no discount. After you spend $100, you get one fill up with $0.10 discount up to 35 gallons. My vehicle in particular has 11 gallons. So my maximum discount is $1.10, up from base line $0.33 discount. $1.10 discount per $100 spent is barely worth it.

Even if you used all 35 gallons, that's $3.50 discount per $100 spent.

So if you have a massive vehicle that takes 35 gallons, you can save $35 off the fill up after you spend $1000 in the store. Could you have saved that $35 by shopping at a different grocery store?

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

I eat meat daily, who thought grocery stores cared about the environment when trying to sell meat at "low costs" and advertising it as much as possible. If they sell beef, they are a big chunk of the beef.

[–] seang96@spgrn.com 7 points 7 months ago

I'm doing about 52 miles a day in an EV that costs me $0.90-$1.20 a day depending on the temperature. Including other fees from power company is based off use it's technically double so $1.80 to $2.40. Let me know where you are getting gas that cheap for ~2 gallons and I'll go fill up for my mower please!

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

Gas stations themselves have loyalty programs as well. Same deal.

[–] Bocky@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

Yes they are, many of the ones in our town have EV chargers in the front row that is free. And then further out are the gas pumps that cost money.

[–] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

This is a very North American problem.

[–] DeltaTangoLima@reddrefuge.com 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not really. Here in Australia, our supermarket duopoloy does the same thing, offering discounts per litre. At the time it all started, the supermarket chains started buying into/acquiring petrol stations and rebranding them. This has been going on for over 20 years.

Recently, both supermarkets sold off their petrol station chains, but the sales included long-standing agreements to continue to offer discounts and loyalty program points for those that shop at the associated supermarket brand.

[–] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 5 points 7 months ago

Don't worry, Australia can be honorary North American.

[–] ManixT@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Happens often in Europe too

[–] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago

You have a choice in Europe.

[–] madmaurice@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

What do you expect from large coorporations? A conscience?

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

They may not even have thought of it. If you’re a customer of such a place, you could suggest to them that there are people who drive EVs and a similar benefit for charging would attract those customers.

Of course it probably comes down to someone would need to decide it’s worth the investment of setting up a charging station, so it’s not going to be cheap or fast

[–] ParabolicMotion@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Maybe they could also offer free EV charging spaces in parking stalls that are close to the store, in addition to still offering gasoline. They’re going to have customers that drive both.

[–] Good_morning@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 7 months ago

You really don't want them 'close' to the store. Too many people will park in specialty parking spaces like grocery pick-up/handicap/pregnant spaces because they'd rather not walk 10 extra steps. As far as I can tell nothing happens, the stores refuse to call a tow truck on a possible customer.

[–] HubertManne@kbin.social 2 points 7 months ago

I have never seen this except in the most gimmicky manner around me.

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