this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2024
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165
Trump, in his first post-trial rally, demands that appeals courts reverse his felony conviction (apnews.com)
submitted 5 months ago by FenrirIII@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[–] Nougat@fedia.io 65 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

That's not how appeals courts work. EDIT: Except in New York State. Please refer to this comment for more details.

Appeals courts only address matters of law, not matters of fact. There would need to have been a legal error in the process of the first trial so large that it would have impacted the jury's decision. In the best case for Trump, the appeals court would find that, and then send the case back to be retried (though depending on the error identified, the prosecution can choose whether to retry the case or not).

Appeals courts don't just say "No, we decided you're innocent! OVERTURNED!" and we know this because of Trumps previous appeal attempts on other shit.

[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Wait really? You can't appeal for innocence at all?

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 44 points 5 months ago (2 children)

No, appeals courts deal with matters of the interpretation of the law and the legal process. Ineffective advice of counsel: "My lawyer made such a heinous error that the fairness of the trial was ruined because of it. "The judge's instructions to the jury were so glaringly wrong that they had an impact on the verdict."

Appeals courts avoid questions of fact as much as possible, only ruling in favor of the appellant if the facts (testimony, evidence) presented at trial can be proved to have been false, and that the falsehood would have had an impact on the verdict.

Lastly, criminal appeals are rarely successful. If you're an appellant who gets a ruling in your favor, that does not change your verdict from guilty to not guilty. What it does is void the previous trial, and everybody starts all over again from the very beginning. New discovery, new trial prep, new pre-trial motions, new jury selection, new courtroom trial. Just like what happened the first time, so long as the prosecutor determines that the case is still ripe.`

That trial, that jury may find you not guilty based on what happens in that courtroom. The appeals court does not do that.

[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Very well explained thank you.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I feel like throwing out some more details, also making the point that I am not a lawyer. I welcome any corrections to my assessments.

On appeals, the court can find that there was an error in the interpretation of the law or the legal process, and also find that the error did not rise to the level of substantially impacting the verdict (whether it was a jury trial or a bench trial). In such a case, the lower court's verdict stands.

Now, let's say we have a criminal appeal where, during the appeal case, it is demonstrated that (for example) the police investigation was horribly shoddy or outright corrupt, and this is new information which has been more completely demonstrated after the initial verdict. This would be the rare situation where the appeals court would address a matter of fact, as in "the facts of the initial case were incorrect or incomplete." In our hypothetical, the appeals court finds that, yes, the failure of that information being revealed in the original case would have had an impact on the verdict, so the appeals court "overturns" (voids) the original trial.

At this point, the District Attorney needs to decide whether to retry the case. Choosing to retry the case does as I described above - everyone starts over. And it is still possible for the defendant to remain in detention pending a verdict. The new trial, with its new jury (or judge), having access to the additional information about the handling of the investigation, now comes to its own decision, ideally separate from the previous trial procedure. If the defendant is now found not guilty, the defendant is freed from any consequences - and may have grounds to file a civil suit against police or the state for their "inconvenience."

Or, the DA may look at the new information and decide, no, we are not going to pursue these charges any further, because the likelihood of achieving conviction is too low. There are other political implications which may come into play, as District Attorney is an elected office (in most places? in every place? not sure). In this situation, the defendant's charges being dropped, in the eyes of the law, it is as though the defendant had never been charged with a crime. As above, this person (notably not a defendant) may have grounds for a civil suit.

The other thing about appeals courts (at least federal appeals courts, may be the same or different in various states) is that the first appeal goes before a subset of the entire appeals court panel, generally three judges. If that three-judge panel does not find in favor of the appellant, the appellant can request that the appeal be reviewed en banc, or by all appeals court judges (likely at least seven). I believe that the en banc court can simply review the initial appeal case and affirm the decision there without having to actually hear the case again.

[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Hm yeah that makes sense. Jury trials are kind of a requirement. Is all this due to the thing in the constitution that says "and no fact tried by a jury shall be retried"?

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

What I am reading here is that the Seventh Amendment (from whence "no fact tried by a jury shall be retried" comes) only applies to civil cases, and the guarantee of the right to a jury in a civil trial only applies to federal courts. So - when Trump was complaining about "not being allowed to have a jury" in his New York civil fraud case, he was wrong on two counts: One, Alina Habba forgot to check the box requesting a jury in that trial. Two: states are not required to offer a jury trial for civil cases.

But I digress - back to criminal cases.

As always, there are federal courts and all of the state courts. What I see is that, even for criminal cases, federal appeals courts do not address matters of fact. They do not hear evidence or testimony from witnesses. They address issues with the application of the law only.

Let's look at the New York Supreme Court, Appellate Division, where Trump's criminal appeal will go. Right off the bat, I see that "Each case is decided by a panel of five, or in some instances four, justices of the Court. There is no procedure for the Court to sit en banc." So my previous statements about en banc do not apply in New York State.

With regard to criminal appeals in New York, it seems to get even more interesting.

"In criminal actions, appeals to the Appellate Division are generally authorized as of right by the defendant from a judgment or a sentence." I take this to mean that a criminal appeal made to this court in New York State is heard by the appellate court - they have neither the option to decline to hear, nor simply review and affirm the lower court.

"In determining appeals it has power to review issues of law, fact, and discretion arising in civil and criminal cases." "Unlike the Court of Appeals [this is what New York calls its highest court, which other states call their Supreme Court], which, with limited exceptions, has only the power to review errors of law, the Appellate Division has broad power to review questions of law, findings of fact, and exercises of discretion." The appellate court in New York "has broad power" to review issues of fact; whether they normally exercise that power, I don't know.

So it seems that, for criminal cases in New York State, my initial assessment of "what appeals courts do" was inaccurate. Again, I don't know whether this court in New York wields its power to review facts and discretion strongly or not, or whether they would do so in this specific case.

[–] LodeMike@lemmy.today 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Are you sure you're not a lawyer?

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 3 points 5 months ago

All I do is read.

[–] notfromhere@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

What I’m hearing you say is that traditionally, appeals courts do not typically deal with matters of fact. One thing Trump has exposed is the flaw of relying on tradition and any type of honor. Wouldn’t surprise me to hear it gets appealed to a court that owes him a favor who says to hell with tradition. Although IANAL and have no idea what I’m saying.

[–] baronvonj@lemmy.world 22 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I hear you, but these are the judges he'll be appealing to

https://www.nycourts.gov/courts/ad1/

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

I mean, his lawyers are appealing to this court. I’m just hoping they’ll dutifully consider the merits of his appeal… and then throw him out on his ear.

[–] medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world 44 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Rally at a megaCHURCH? I was under the impression that if they accepted payment for space rental, that breaks their tax-exempt status. If they simply allowed a political rally, same problem. Hmmm....

[–] OldFart@lemmy.world -3 points 5 months ago (4 children)
[–] KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago (1 children)

This domain name just doesn't look like something you should click.

[–] barsquid@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'd be alright with just taxing all churches as businesses.

[–] OldFart@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Not all, there is one church that does not get involved in ANY politics.

[–] barsquid@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Nah, them also. No exceptions. I guess they could file for 503 (c) status if they qualify.

[–] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 1 points 5 months ago

which one are you thinking of

[–] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 6 points 5 months ago

The fact that Democrats are doing it too doesn't make it okay.

[–] Phegan@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Ohhhh but the Democrats....

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 28 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Trump has the makings of a great meme template.

Batshit crazy demand #1 - "or we’re not going to have a country anymore!"

Batshit crazy demand #2 - "or we’re not going to have a country anymore!"

Batshit crazy demand #3 - "or we’re not going to have a country anymore!"

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago (3 children)

"I'd like a large mushroom pizza and a bottle of coca cola, please, " - “or we’re not going to have a country anymore!”

[–] ringwraithfish@startrek.website 8 points 5 months ago

Holy fuck that's hilarious. I'm definitely going to start slipping this into real life conversations with my ultra conservative family members.

[–] lando55@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Sir this is a Wendy's

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

I want a large chocolate frosty or we're not going to have a country anymore!

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 months ago

gimme a uh… double bacon cheeseburger… gimme a pie (apple)… gimme a uh… liter of cola… OR WE’RE NOT GOING TO HAVE A COUNTRY ANYMORE!

The memetic cross-pollination potential here is real.

[–] btaf45@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Batshit crazy demand #1 - “or we’re not going to have a country anymore!”

So Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump is now demanding that Biden wins.

[–] JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world 25 points 5 months ago

'Demands'. Lol.

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 15 points 5 months ago

lol.

Lmao, even.

[–] btaf45@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Is anywhere else sick of Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump saying "rigged" every time he loses a court case or election? Loser Trump loses at golf? "Rigged".

This unamerican neofascist slanders our great country and attacks America's longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law every f*cking time he loses. And being such a huge loser and criminal he loses a lot. What a sick and twisted piece of shit.

[–] CitizenKong@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

He cheats at golf too.

[–] IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

I’m looking forward to seeing how the judge addresses all these rants at his sentencing.

[–] Stupidmanager@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

I’m sure I’m breaking a rule here, but every time I see his stock angry pouty face photo, I think of Ben stiller.