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Help deciding on a ThinkPad T480 (lemmy.ca)
submitted 3 weeks ago by 0xDEADBEEF2@lemmy.ca to c/linuxhardware@lemmy.ml
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Hello everyone. I've been looking for a new laptop recently, and I was wondering what your thoughts were. This is what I want in a new lapop:

  • Decently powerful processor for virtualization, compilation, and BitTorrent
  • Easily replaceable/upgradable battery
  • Upgradable RAM
  • Upgradable storage (preferably 1 TiB+ NVMe SSD)
  • Webcam
  • Microphone
  • Hassle-free Wi-fi (I'm tired of fighting with proprietary blobs that need manual installation and want something plug-and-play)
  • Hassle-free Bluetooth
  • Ethernet port
  • USB ports
  • Hardy frame (nice but not required)

Important note: Ideally the laptop will be compatible with Linux Libre, as I want to run Guix System on it. But I'm not opposed to using the normal Linux kernel if necessary (and probably will anyways due to security protections like Spectre).

I've been eyeing the ThinkPad T480 (specs link) for some time. What do you think? It seems to tick all the boxes:

  • Powerful processor: i7-8650U (a 2018 model I think)
  • Upgradable battery: 24 Wh internal + 72 Wh discrete battery
  • Upgradable RAM (up to 32 GB)
  • Upgradable storage
  • A webcam
  • A microphone
  • Wi-fi
  • Bluetooth
  • Lots of ports (3 USB Type-C, 1 HDMI, 1 Ethernet, 1 headphone)

I do have some concern about the additional storage though. A Reddit user said this:

Just note that the T480 has only 2 usable PCIe lanes, so it's half the rated max speeds (ie, for most of the premium performance pcie3x4 drives, it's about 3500/3000MBps reads/writes respectively), so half that because it's only 2 lanes.

Found this out the hard way, ended up selling the T480 and going for a T14 AMD instead, because for that particular use case I had, high speed reads/writes were important. Was wondering why my 970 Evo Plus was so slow, and thought I had a faulty drive for a moment.

Lenovo acknowledges this limitation at the PSREF: "Installed M.2 SSD is PCIe 3.0 x 4 but run at PCIe 3.0 x 2 due to M.2 SSD adapter limitation"

https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDF

Link to post

I'm not sure what to think about that. I don't like the idea of getting half capacity, but 1.5 GBps doesn't seem so bad, even if it could theoretically be higher.

Has anyone here used this laptop? Am I understanding the specs correctly?

This isn't specific to this laptop, but how do you determine which NVMe to get? I see lots of numbers and am not certain how to interpret them.

If you think another laptop would meet the above qualifications, feel free to point it out. But my budget is rather tight (250 USD max for the computer, preferably under ~200 USD if possible), so I probably don't have a lot of options with regards to newer computers, which is why I was considering this slightly dated model.

Bonus: I found this article while browsing. Looks like the Wi-fi and Bluetooth don't work…

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[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I have a T480s with arch on it and it is my favorite computer to use. Its far worse than the one you posted tho.

Practically, the speeds on the NVME matter but not that much so just get what you can afford. At your price range you're pretty much going to have to deal with something and those ThinkPads at least offer good outer hardware compared to other cheap ass laptops.

It should do alright with your specs though if you are doing a lot of reading and writing you might want to take that reddit user's advice. I personally dont use the USBs hardly at all on mine, as its a lightweight setup I made to take with me when I move around the office (from salvaged equipment about to be thrown out).

So keep my light use case in mind with this comment as my little guy basically browses webpages, gets riced, and hides Caves of Qud for me while I'm at the office.

[–] 0xDEADBEEF2@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks for the thorough response. It helps a lot.

How is the Wi-fi on your laptop? Did you have to do something hacky to get it to work, or did the Arch kernel just recognize everything nicely?

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

I had to setup NetworkManager, and the first setup is documented really well on the arch wiki. Its practically painless. But does require command line.

[–] dingdongitsabear@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

that's about the crux of it. it's a widely available platform that can be had for cheap, the replacements and upgrades are plentiful and cheap and cross-generational compatibility (both from earlier and later models) is exceptional. some notes:

  • ignore the NVMe speeds; they're perfectly congruent with the rest of the machine and there are virtually no bottlenecks for the use you mentioned
  • no idea about the Guix thing, normal Linux distros (Fedora, Arch, Debian, etc) have OOB functionality for all comms; spotty fingerprint reader support though
  • there's a negligible performance difference between the top-of-the line i7-8650u and the entry-level i5-8350u, so feel free to ignore the CPU entirely. also be aware that earlier models came with the kabylake 7xxxu line, which you don't want for any kind of money
  • although panels can be upgraded cheaply and easily, make sure you don't get a 768p panel. the factory 1080p stock panels are IPS and 6-bit, so they're decent and power-efficient. if you're into color-accurate use cases, you'll need a 8-bit 400-nit upgrade at some point
  • if at all possible, try to buy it without RAM and storage; they're predominantly available with shitty 256 GB drives and one 8 GB stick and that makes a normally specced machine with 32 GB and 1TB+ storage unnecessarily pricier
  • don't shy away from newer models (T49x, T14 Gen1) if you happen to find them for cheap; T14 AMD for instance has one slot populated with 16 GB (1 free) and has only one battery, but it makes it up with a more modern, powerful and power-efficient platform
  • if you plan on using it with external devices (monitors, sound, etc.) do yourself a favor and get a dock station. just like the T-series they're widely available, cheap and work across generations; e.g. the 40AJ dock, you click the laptop into place and all your devices and PSU are connected instantly
[–] 0xDEADBEEF2@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks for the detailed breakdown.

How well do those other models (T49x, T14 Gen 1) work with Linux? Is everything compatible out-of-the-box? And how does the CPU performance compare to the T480? It looks like the T490 has the i7-10710U and the T14 Gen 1 has the Core i7-10810U. Is the CPU performance ranking T14 Gen 1 > T490 > T480? (I'd think a bigger number means better performance.) Does the performance difference even really matter? It looks like these laptops were released 2018 - ~2020, so I imagine they're all close in performance.

T480 specs

T490 specs

T14 Gen 1 specs

I also found out that there is a difference between the T480 and the T480s. Do you have any opinions on them? A Reddit user said this:

This sub loves the T480, but the T480s is a much nicer feeling machine in the hand due to the external frame materials.

Reasons for the T480: power bridge, 64G RAM dual channel. T480s can do 40G RAM which is plenty but it will sacrifice some real world performance due anything above 16G being single channel (visible on i.e. speedometer 2.1)

Reasons for the T480s: build quality/feeling, portability

Link to post

T480s specs

Overall, it looks like the T480s is less upgradable, but more comfortable. Is that analysis correct?

[–] dingdongitsabear@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

all Thinkpad models (doesn't extend to other Lenovo series) have exceptional Linux compatibility and support as long as you go a generation or two before the current one. there are some edge cases, like the fingerprint sensors on some less popular models, but if you stick to tried and tested models, you won't have problems.

the S-suffix models are like the Macbook Air models, they're thinner, have a single battery and have some more exotic materials used, like carbon, magnesium, etc. they also have one RAM bank soldered so that's an issue if you get one with e.g. 4 GB soldered, you're either maxed out at 8 GB if you want dual-channel performance or if you go with an additional 8 or 16 GB stick you'll have some performance penalties.

I have a T480s (here's how I got it) and even though it's less serviceable and expandable than the non-S version, it's light years ahead from the usual consumer grade models out there, everything is easily sourced and replaced, with detailed hardware maintenance manuals straight from the manufacturer.

anyhow, if you're moving from some consumer-class model, you can safely ignore the additional thinness as even the standard T480 is portable enough in comparison to the usual drastic-plastic e-waste.

as to newer versions, I was merely pointing out that you don't have to limit yourself to the exact model (e.g. T480) but look at other, similar models if you happen to stumble onto one. like, I got a T14 Gen1 AMD with a busted screen for about $100 and that's a vastly better machine than the T480s. it's hexa-core, way better graphics, connectivity, power efficiency, and since it's younger the battery is in better shape. the soldered 16 GB limits it to 32 GB max, but that's more than enough for my use cases.

[–] kuulman@social.tchncs.de 1 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

@dingdongitsabear
Does any model newer than T480 has a dual-battery? Which models later than xx30-series has a working fingerprint reader in Linux?
@0xDEADBEEF2 @linuxhardware

[–] dingdongitsabear@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I believe T480 is the last one that has two batteries; T49x and T14 def don't have any, possibly some P-series models, can't check now, but those are workstation-class machines with discrete graphics, so not in the same ballpark.

I don't know your use case, but the dual-battery isn't necessarily a good thing; apart from marginally improving battery autonomy (by like 20%), its primary use is you being able to hot-swap the second battery without shutting down the laptop. that (carrying around multiple fully charged battery packs) is a 20-year old paradigm that nobody uses nowadays.

my point being, going with a more modern platform nets you better battery autonomy, even with a single battery, and more computing power when running docked. case in point, T14s Gen6 (12-core Snapdragon EliteX) has but one battery but with 20+ hours of autonomy. that's obviously a vastly more expensive device, but even T14 Gen3 with 6xxx Ryzens can sip power while on battery and go full blast when docked.

edit: can't help you with the fingerprints as I routinely disable it on any laptop I have, but I seem to remember that all non-S versions mentioned ITT are good to go OOB.

[–] 0xDEADBEEF2@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 weeks ago

I haven't looked carefully, but from my last search (approx. 4 months ago) I was under the impression that the T480 was the last dual-battery ThinkPad.

[–] 0xDEADBEEF2@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

By chance are you familiar with the T14 Gen 1 AMD? I realized that it can have 6 cores and 12 threads, which is pretty cool, but it also looks like the battery drains rapidly even during suspend.

I had the same issue [power drain in standby] with the ThinkPad T14 AMD. Left it in my backpack for two days and the battery was completely drained.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28088584#28088671

T14s Gen 4 AMD on linux, significant battery drain with lid closed

…
I get massive battery drain when my laptop is sleeping (50%+ in 12 hours for example).

https://old.reddit.com/r/LinuxOnThinkpad/comments/lfc0ax/t14_gen_1_amd_suspend_loses_battery_fast/

But these comments are from a few years ago, so I don't know whether or not the issue has been fixed by now.

[–] dingdongitsabear@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 weeks ago

there's no observable difference between a T420s, T480s and said T14 Gen1 AMD, they all lose battery while suspended. the battery drain is endemic to practically any modern laptop that's not a Macbook Pro running macOS; even the MBP running Fedora has the same drain.

it's easily solved though by implementing suspend-then-hibernate; the laptop sleeps normally and if not woken in, say, 60 minutes it hibernates to disk na shuts all power off - zero battery drain. once woken, it resumes from the disk super-fast, faster than cold-boot.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Imo, you aren't going to notice any issues regarding speeds

The t480 is still pretty damn solid for the exact reasons you said. Unless you're going to be doing some crazy stuff where you'd need a more potent device to begin with, it'll serve most needs.

Mine is similarly specced, and handles even some video editing and photo editing without any problems at all. I can play games on it, assuming they aren't batshit. And, I can have a dozen windows open and flip between them with no lag at all.

The battery upgrade is a must, in my book. The regular version is okay, but the extended lets you work on documents all day, while also playing music. That's pretty damn nice.

[–] 0xDEADBEEF2@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

Which battery did you buy (if you bought one, of course)? Any recommendations or anti-recommendations? Official batteries usually go for extortionate prices, but aftermarket batteries are a little scary since you can't tell what quality you're going to get until it's too late.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago

I went official, straight from them.

I had the funds after a book I wrote made enough sales to justify a laptop to write the next one more organically, so I went with stuff that would be most likely to have the least issues.

[–] 0x0@programming.dev 2 points 3 weeks ago

Upgradable battery: 24 Wh internal + 72 Wh discrete battery

I think they're 2x 24 Wh, don't have mine at hand to check or YMMV. Haven't really tested it much though yet.