Enjoying their freedom to be enslaved, as long as its freedom.
this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.
Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.
I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.
Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you're the one bullshitting.
The most "extreme" it can get in such systems is that they won't pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they're not as good.
Even then, sometimes they will if it's actually worth it (as in: for something that's a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).
That's "your quality of life won't be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they'll only pay for a not as expensive one", not "death panels".
People in those countries absolutelly aren't going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.
PS: For avoidance of confusion, by Universal Healthcare I mean countries were the State provides the Healthcare and you get it without paying, not the so-called "Mixed Systems" that also exist in Europe (for example in Germany and The Netherlands) and which have Mandatory Healthcare Insurance for all residents, though much more regulated than in the US and with a Public Provider for the less well off. Mixed Systems do have some of the problems of the US System and massivelly depend on the strength of local regulations and the seriousness of the Regulator to not decay into the same kind of situation as the US since the Private Insurance Companies there have the very same natural tendency to shaft their clients as the ones in the US and only the local regulations stop them.
Sorry then.
I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.
The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.
It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.
But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.
Exatcly they dont know shit. While american healthcare system is clearly fucked there are many problems in european healthcare ( very country dependent tho ) ranging from lack of qualified doctors and long waiting times to very expensive treatments not covered in eu for some reason ( the one ive seen the most being uber expensive often experimental treatment where you usualy have to go to america ).
I'm not sure I'm other places but there's a physician shortage in the US, Canada, but there looks to be a shortage in Europe as well..
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9799366/ https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/09/12/doctor-shortages-low-pay-and-overtime-europes-hospitals-are-under-the-weather
From what I've seen, treatments not being covered are only the case were those treatments are very expensive and there are other effective treatments (though less effective) which are much cheaper.
There's also often a delay between a new and very expensive experimental treatment coming out and it becoming covered because it won't be covered if it doesn't demonstrate that it's advantages over the other available treatments are sufficient to justify the additional cost.
Mind you, I'm talking about Public Healthcare Systems, not the so-called Mixed Systems that have mandatory Health Insurance (usually highly regulated and with a Public Insurance option for the less well off) - Mixed Systems have some of the same problems as the US System at least in my experience living in countries with one and with the other kind of system.
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People in those countries absolutelly aren't going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
The meme has an "or" in it though. About 20% of Canadian bankruptcy is due to health and illness. Here in Canada the maximum disability is ~1500cad a month, which might pay your rent if you live in a really really cheap area. Part of the reason it's bad like that is because it is so often compared to America, and often greatly exaggerated like in this meme.
I don't think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon
There are public health systems that just won’t offer that operation. Or you’ll have a 1.5 year waiting list. So in the end, unless you’re rich and pay for private insurance, it comes out as the same.
(Edit: since someone thought my take is because I’m american and don’t understand. I’m european, have lived most my life in europe, this is from lived experience)
People in Australia do experience medical bankruptcy. It's incredibly rare now. But it's true. But it used to be so much worse before we had a public health system. And health outcomes were worse as well. And it cost more.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-18/bob-hawke-what-did-australia-have-before-medicare/11124180
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Yeah, that happens sometimes. But in this case the price of an operation will be drastically cheaper.
I had this situation in Germany, there was a minor operation I needed to have which was not life threatening so the one that insurance covered had a waiting period, so I decided to go pay out of pocket and it was around 800 euro. The cheapest price I could find in US for it started at 11000 dollars.
For sure. But now imagine your disabled and on disability income, where you get payed 1k a month and are living in poverty.
If you're disabled and on disability income, it will absolutely not cost you 800 euro. You will be put in front of the queue for the free one. That's why I, able bodied working person with slightly above median income, had to wait. And I think it's as fair of a system that is possible under the circumstances.
That’s not how it works in my country. Great that that’s how your country works. The vast majority of those with universal healthcare don’t work like that.
I used to work for a disability advocacy organisation so I can assure you that.
Which country are you talking about?
My experience in; France, Switzerland, Austria, United Kingdom
For every case of a disabled persion on benefits having to wait 1.5 years for a non-urgent operation because they can't afford private healthcare, there are a million of cases of people who get a common problem like Diabetes or Cardio-Vascular problems and get treated for free (down to getting the medicine for free, which for a person below the poverty line will be true even for the worst countries) rather than suddenly being faced with an extra monthly bill for medicine (which would be a massive hit for those poor people you cosplay as caring about for the sake of argument) or a massive bill for urgent surgery.
(Which reminds me: one thing that will NEVER happen in one of those countries, unlike in the US, is when one ends up in the emergency ward and requires an expensive treatment to save their life, they won't get a massive bill at the end)
Oh, and even if you pay out of pocket for medicine, it's way cheaper in those countries than the US, as governments have used their leverage to limit what Pharmaceutial companies can charge, unlike in the US.
The healthcare risks for the average individual in countries with Universal Healthcare aren't even in the same universe as in the US.
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there's still waiting lists in the US.
Neither this meme nor your own lived experiences are good representations of what the average American struggles with in the healthcare system. Speaking as someone who lost a house and almost everything I owned due to medical issues in my family.
Even with the issues it has (and there are a LOT of issues— too much to name here), i would still take the canadian healthcare system over the US’. My mom’s medication costs thousands of dollars, and it’s all covered. We wouldn’t be able to afford it otherwise and she’d likely be dead if it weren’t for the coverage.
Well yes,.. but no, you can face significant financial burdens if someone in your family needs living assistance, such as a parent, and the state steps in to cover the costs. The law allows the state to require adult children to contribute to these expenses to a certain degree, but only after all assets of the elder or disabled person have been exhausted ("bankrupting" said person so to speak).
While this is not the same as bankrupting an entire family for life, it can indeed become a heavy financial strain if the parents were not adequately insured or financially prepared for such situations. The obligatio, however, is subject to strict thresholds and limits, such as exemptions for children earning below €100,000 annually, ensuring hardship is avoided.
Edit: "100.000k" sounds like much, but a German Dad providing for 2 kids and a stay at home wife would need this as a bare minimum to pay off the debt for the house 25km from the next medium city, in the next 20 years. No vacation outside Europe. Nothing fancy. If a parent then requires 1200€ per month, it's a massive strain.... so yeah, not bankrupting but painful.
Haha that's not true. Canada is two tiered. You fucking full well know that not everything here is covered.
the US healthcare racket
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