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my problem with signal is that they have a hard requirement to use a phone number for signup and that they don't want to do anything about federation or messenger intercompatibility.
Their resoning is that they only trust themself to keep the meta data safe and so need you. Leaves a little bit of a sour tast in my mouth that they don't even give their users the option to opt into federation.
This is a good comparison of messengers here:
https://eylenburg.github.io/im_comparison.htm
Btw, an imprtant aspect of privacy is how metadata are handled/leaked. Signal trues to minimize metadata leak to near zero (there are some other messengers that do that, like simplex)
Signal is an open-source privacy-focused end-to-end encrypted texting platform (so competing with SMS, WhatsApp, iMessage, Telegram, and similar). It’s developed by a donation-funded non-profit organization.
Signal is quite good compared to the competition, but it faces a lot of scrutiny because they make big promises about privacy and security so the people who care will really get into the details on that. Also IIRC there was a period when one of their competitors was trying to slander them more or less.
In general there’s nothing wrong with Signal and it’s quite a good option. If you really care about the privacy details you can always host your own instance (but that would require you to convince your friends to use your instance … it’s not federated).
The deal is that they run their program in a very transparent and wherever possible verifiable way.
More details here: https://lemmy.world/comment/14775870
Different people don't like it for different reasons. Some people don't like it because they think it has CIA financial backing (nope), and some people don't like it because it requires your phone number, therefore it is not private (the privacy it provides is more than sufficient for anyone not actively being persecuted by a Five Eyes state), and some people don't like it because it feels corporate (it's a 501c3 nonprofit, and how corporate it feels is subjective).
Accurate. And if you are being targeted by 5 eyes, your phone is probably fucked, one app vs another probably won't make a difference
If you ARE targeted by 5 eyes, you'd probably want to not be using your phone for communications, but Signal sorta requires you to, even if there's a desktop client.
However, I don't presume to know what would be the best option. SimpleX maybe, as the servers don't keep messages? Otherwise, I use Matrix because it's a lot more common and very easy to set up your own homeserver. However, again, if I had to hide something from a 5 eyes threat actor, they'd just find some vulnerability in my server config or, hell, maybe they can somehow sneakily get root access through the VPS provider itself, as I'm not hosting on my own hardware.
Honestly, meeting in person might be the most private solution if you've got that kind of a threat model.
Signal doesn't keep messages on their servers either. The only data they have on you is your phone number and the unix time you made your account in.
How do you know that?
It's what happens in the publicized source code, yes, but how do you know that's what's running in their servers? How do you know that all requests aren't saved?
Luckily Signal has e2ee and client side code is easy to verify, so they'd only have access to encrypted messages anyway, but if you're talking state level actors of the highest caliber, they might be able to crack Signal's encryption eventually.
Look, I'll agree that Signal is probably secure enough. It's definitely secure enough for me, I only run Matrix as a hobby because I like decentralization, my Matrix server is probably less secure than Signal. But I'm just saying we can never know for sure what code is running in THEIR servers, therefore we can never trust is 100%.
https://signal.org/bigbrother/ Its all they claim to have at least.
And I hope for sure that they're never quietly forced to change that.
But again, if there were 3 letter agencies and gag orders involved with Signal, they probably wouldn't give regular law enforcement or courts any of the data they have.
Really, my only problem is that with a centralized service, there's no way to ever know for sure. There's luckily no evidence of anything nefarious happening at least.
And some people don’t like it because it used to handle SMS on Android, and they removed that feature for security reasons.
This was such a dumb decision
That was a pretty wild decision
Handling SMS and handling secure/encrypted messages could've made people think they communicate securely while relying on text messages instead.
Not handling SMS fixes this source of confusion and I applaud their decision.
There were ways to make it clear that it was insecure that didn't alienate an arguable majority of their casual userbase.
The problem is that most people don't want multiple text apps, they just want one. I had gotten a number of people using signal, and it was secure when we talked, but when signal dropped SMS, almost every one of them stopped using it, so then none of their conversations were secure.
If only the was some indicator for unsecure messages, such as a grey send button and an open padlock. 🙄
I think the number of people who care deeply about privacy and cannot tell the difference between an sms or signal message is minimal. There were plenty of ways signal could have highlighted DANGER UNSECURE CHANNEL if they had wanted to, or made it an off-by-default option, rather than drop SMS entirely. For myself and many other people it meant that family members dropped Signal rather than have an extra messaging app, and so I'm still stuck with WhatsApp on my phone...
Some people don’t like that they attached a crypto wallet to the app. I couldn’t care less and use the messenger daily!
Hey signal is better than most of the mainstream bs. I use it myself and I'm confident that the messages themselves are secure. However, it had issues.
Since we cannot verify the software they run on the server is the software that is open source then we must assume it is not.
We know for a majority of cases a phone number = a real identity. Signal implements sealed sender but since signal is a centralised point they can correlate the sealed sender extraordinarily easily. We must therefore assume signal knows when and who is communicating (We can verify they don't know what is being said) this therefore means signal could theoretically have a full social graph of real identities for every singe user.
This is of course after we remember signal received funding from BBG which is an organisation funded by the us government purely for the purpose of promoting american propaganda.
Also I believe they used to have federation but all evidence of this seems to have been wiped from the internet.
Signal can either adapt and prove themselves with more than a "trust me bro" or they can die. Just cos they are better than the alternatives does not mean we should not demand better.
great explanation!
we must assume it is not.
100% - Security is about capabilities, not intentions!
Don't assume - verify!
Also I believe they used to have federation but all evidence of this seems to have been wiped from the internet.
They never had.
The talk about federation originated when the EU demanded interoperability from gatekeeper software i.e. Whatsapp. Signal said on day one they wouldn't do from their end because it would mean lowering security.
There was LibreSignal once but it got shut down by Signal. It's quite old. This was like 10 years ago.
Signal is great, you should use it.
Current problems with signal
Details
Means it's vulnerable to government pressure, it's not wrench proof
means you can't really trust it for sensitive things, like if you were running the french government communication systems it would be foolish to use signal. Signal uses the power of Intel SGX enclaves to keep your private key safe, so your trusting Intel not to sign something bad, your trusting sgx to not have exploits, etc.
Means it's a walled garden, and not open to self hosting.
Signal is the best main stream e2e out there, but it's not the last one we will ever see, something will replace it
Your encryption key is stored ON-DEVICE. Not in "the cloud".
In fact, they just had a big hullabalu about the encryption key being stored in plain-text on their desktop client, which they've now resolved.
They now use https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/safe-storage on the desktop client.
Both on device and in the cloud.
https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/
That is why when you switch phones and register again with signal using your "pin", you can send messages to your contacts without your verification number changing.
What the hell, that makes it completely useless?
Yup, it was really big news and everyone was up in arms when they introduced SVR.
You can "opt out" in the settings, your key is still stored in the cloud but with a random BIP32 encoding or somesuch, still not a great practice, and whoever you talk to probably didn't opt out.
Signal is better then non e2e messengers, but its not the best architecture we could have. If your ok with Intel, and the Signal foundation being in a position to handover your keys to a TLA who then would have the capability to decrypt your messages - then its fine. So sexting is fine, probably prevents business intelligence, but if I was negotiating a MX US trade deal, I wouldn't use signal to talk about my strategy.
If your running a government communication system, 1,2,3 (But especially point 2) - mean you can't use signal.
What the hell.
Thanks for the info!
https://github.com/signalapp/SecureValueRecovery2
The method has changed since that blog post.
So you are correct about it being stored in the cloud - they also seem to take much better care of it there, but when it's on someone elses server, your point stands - they can SAY they do anything. There's no way to actually test that. So thanks for the correction.
Anytime, I love it when lemmy is a collaborative space!
There is not „your encryption key“ because there is not only one.
The cloud backup (protected by the pin) includes the contact list, NOT your messages. Those are encrypted on device with a key that is on device and can not be recovered by anyone from the cloud.
It's mostly minor shit, it's better than the alternatives unless you self-host (which has a boatload of other issues).
The thing is I have yet to see any reasonable alternatives.
Threema is the closest but it’s not free-of-charge, so a non-starter for most of my friends.
The others are controlled by Russia (telegram) or Meta. What else even is viable?