this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
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politics

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"Progressives should not make the same mistake that Ernst Thälmann made in 1932. The leader of the German Communist Party, Thälmann saw mainstream liberals as his enemies, and so the center and left never joined forces against the Nazis. Thälmann famously said that 'some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest' of social democrats, whom he sneeringly called 'social fascists.'

After Adolf Hitler gained power in 1933, Thälmann was arrested. He was shot on Hitler’s orders in Buchenwald concentration camp in 1944."

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[–] EmpireInDecay@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 months ago (6 children)

Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed

Karl Marx 1850

[–] todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

I agree entirely, in regards to politics in 1850's Germany with its diverse multiparty political ecosystem.

As for current American politics, where we are deeply entrenched in a societal tug-of-war in an ostensible two-party system, where third parties can swing policy in a largely undemocratic direction by spoiling the vote in close elections, I disagree completely. Third parties serve no purpose in a two-party representative democracy.

If we can break the two party political duopoly, then I will never complain about another fringe party voter ever again. Until then, you better fucking vote for the lesser evil, because letting the greater evil win, as we learned in 2017-2020, is really fucking bad.

If anything, letting Democrats win the next few major elections could spell doom for the Republican party as a whole, and give us a chance to introduce some actual competition to the Democratic party.

I wish that I could snap my fingers and have it fixed today, but that's not how societies work. Accelerationism always requires violence, and violence isn't how you should uphold democracy, unless you are defending its pillars against a direct threat. A two-party duopoly is something we the people need to defeat.

That means we need to abolish the electoral college, introduce universal mail-in voting, defeat all right-wing disenfranchisement efforts, and introduce ranked-choice voting to all elections. These are radical changes that will take a lot of work to accomplish, and that will face a lot of opposition.

Under Democrat leadership, these things are possible. Under Republican leadership, we'll be lucky if we still have elections.

[–] EmpireInDecay@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Your solution to defeating the duopoly is continuing giving them power and participating in it?

[–] chakan2@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (13 children)

Would you like your vote to matter after November?

Then yes, I'm pushing the duopoly this time around.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago (19 children)

So if they can't vote for their views now, and we keep pushing the duopoly, when do we get democracy?

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

That’s the neat part… you don’t.

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[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

It's not a way to defeat the duopoly, it's a way to survive under it.

Voting 3rd party is also not a way to defeat the duopoly.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 5 points 3 months ago

Give me a reasonable alternative and I'll take it.

You don't name a candidate to vote for, just say we shouldn't participate.

Who do you think scares Donnie more, Harris or your non-participation?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

If anything, letting Democrats win the next few major elections could spell doom for the Republican party as a whole, and give us a chance to introduce some actual competition to the Democratic party.

This will never happen. The replacement party will be fascist. The Republican Party's fascism doesn't exist because of "brainwashing" or "conmen," it exists because fascism rises from decaying Capitalism. If you don't get rid of the Capitalism, the conditions for fascism remain.

That means we need to abolish the electoral college, introduce universal mail-in voting, defeat all right-wing disenfranchisement efforts, and introduce ranked-choice voting to all elections. These are radical changes that will take a lot of work to accomplish, and that will face a lot of opposition.

Under Democrat leadership, these things are possible. Under Republican leadership, we'll be lucky if we still have elections.

The Democrats will never work against their donors. This will never happen.

[–] EmpireInDecay@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Especially when their donors are the same donors to the GOP

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago
[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 2 points 3 months ago

That part. They know where we're going, the only difference as far as I can see is some prefer it slower, to keep from spooking the populace, and others are willing to slaughter any part of the populace that resist.

One day, the lambs will stop screaming.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago (59 children)

Marx didn't live long enough to see just how ineffectual that line of thinking actually is.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 8 points 3 months ago

I don't think "ineffectual" is the word you're looking for there.

[–] EmpireInDecay@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Same capitalists trying the same failed tactics of voter suppression.

Every one of his perspectives of capitalism and it's bourgeoisie governments still rings true.

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