this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2023
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If "they don't repeat old mistakes" (like communist china not starving Ukranians, for instance), millions of people still die (like communist china killing all the sparrows, for instance), but at least the despots killed all those people in a different way! The last bit is the usual refutation from lemmygradniks, that all of that never happened, as it was just western propaganda, and then I threw in the russian word for commrade for extra sarcasm.
You really gotta get out more if you haven't had those arguments with those crazy bastards, though they are on "your team" (at least the one you're defending, communism) so I'd imagine you don't argue with them often as it were.
The Ukranian Holodomor was the direct result of Stalin's (and/or his people) actions. When your country has dictatorship, the economic system is kind of doesn't matter, everything happens not because of the economic system but because of the will of the dictator.
The main pillar of both socialism and communism is workers collectively owning the means of production, this is directly contradicts to the autocracy that was USSR.
If you think that China had famine because of communism, you should think that North Korea has famines because of democracy, because they call themselves Democratic Republic.
The prc and ussr both had famines, yeah. One of the greatest tragedies of the sino soviet split is the lack of cooperation during the chinese one.
I don’t know what people told you, but there absolutely was a ton of misinformation about the soviet famine that got revealed once 1992 rolled around and the archives opened up. Turned out they had some terrible fuckups and bad luck but there wasn’t any deliberate starvation.
Communists argue about this stuff all the time, we just recognize people trying to understand conflicting information versus people trying to have a big fight or a debate. Part of the reason you get so much flak is because someone interested in learning how to understand conflicting information will gladly read a two hundred page analysis of a four hundred page historical text and discuss it openly while a person looking for a fight will call names and act like bringing up the famines is some gotcha that unmasks the internet communist for the scooby doo villian they are.
Long form holodomor denial? Good look lol. Now do the Armenian Genocide, and follow up with "that wasn't real communism" and we'll hit 'em all!
So you really think that the communists I talk to are usually genocide denialists because I'm clearly not communist and not interested in listening to pages of genocide denial, so the communists who aren't genocide denialists won't talk to me? Maybe that's the problem, but it isn't a "me" problem, it's a "communists who don't deny their atrocities" problem, they should again be "louder" than their "not numerous" compatriots. Every 50th (ykwim) one I get will actually admit those failings, but then they usually still want to kill a bunch of people now which I also sorta kinda have a problem with. Murder is wrong even if you dehumanize your enemy sufficiently and feel justified, self defense is one thing but that easily gets twisted from reality to fit their revenge fantasies, and I'm really just not about it.
I don’t know much about the armenian genocide, always thought that was the Turkish nationalists thing.
I don’t know who you’ve been talking to or what they’ve been saying. I do know that an astounding number of people who’ve written extensively on the famine calling it holodomor have turned around in the last twenty years, usually after seeing soviet records, and said “well, it’s not actually a genocide”.
I understand how it feels to hear someone say that an atrocity is made up or deserved. Maybe we both have the same holocaust denying uncle. The difference here is that one was confirmed explicitly in record and the other was not.
It’s real disheartening seeing people try that buffoonish no true scotsman garbage but what can you do. Nothing derails a head full of steam over wages like six hundred words on the gonzolites.
Tbh I'm not sure why they usually deny that one either, but for some reason they are commonly linked when I find those people in the wild, honestly I was hoping you could tell me lol.
You do indeed seem different, even though I'm still not sold on the whole "holodomor wasn't a genocide" thing, but still you're not the same as them at least, so that's cool.
If you get a chance, read wheatcrofts responses to his own damn book years of hunger. He’s no commie and speaks fluent russian and was one of the important people involved in figuring out the archives after the ussr fell.
When he came out and said something to the effect of “it might have been uncaring murderous stalinist policy but it doesn’t rise to the level of genocide” the whole western historical community did a spit take.
Better yet, stop engaging in polemic with communists and just read history and theory instead.
Ah ok, I'll read that, but imo that sounds like "it might have been light genocide, but it wasn't real genocide™" so far.
Still my point stands though, them simply saying that "the holodomor is western propaganda" without then saying "it was just murderous and uncaring stalinists" sounds like denial, especially if they then don't continue with "and it was bad" but rather "and Stalin was the best." Whether or not that denial is "genocide denial" or "murderous uncaring stalinist denial" matters little to me.
I've read some, albeit not everything and I never will, as I prefer individual liberty to collectivism personally and that is a difference too fundimental to overcome. Agorists are alright, I prefer their approach.
Is a light genocide like when they use aspartame instead of hfcs?
When people say the holodomor is western propaganda they are saying that there was no genocidal famine because there was no genocide. They aren’t saying it because they love stalin but because a bunch of historians came around and said “actually there’s not evidence for a genocide”.
The word holodomor means (and I’m paraphrasing here because meaning has changed over time) “genocide famine”. The term was popularized in the west by radio free europe. So if the word can’t be true and it was a cia talking point that’s your western propaganda.
Tbh I wouldnt lead with that because you have to basically drag someone kicking and screaming to it and they’ll still insist you perform the litany of rejecting stalin immediately afterwards.
I don’t suggest you read communist theory to change your mind, but because you’re obviously not interested in trading slogans with people and probably would get more out of it than the people that plow through capital thinking it’ll make them smart.
If nothing else, read state and revolution. It’s super short and pokes some hundred year old holes in anarchist thought that still bug em today.
Well, is there a trans genocide in the US like the Trans people are claiming? Would you call it a genocide if the racists in America decided that areas with a majority black population should be the ones to starve because of a murderous and uncaring president?
Yeah, you maybe. Or if so they should say that instead of "it's western propaganda, stalin did nothing wrong he was the best" but they don't.
Whatever your opinions, downplaying the severity and hand waving away "murderous and uncaring" isn't a good look, it sounds like Trump supporters dude. "Stalin could kill a man in Times Square and still get elected president."
Oh, so you're suprised people who don't support murder and genocide would expect you to not like your murderous uncaring cult of personality? Yeah, me too. Just shocked I tell ya. C'mon dude be real, "it was just murder and uncaring" is not the W you think it is, they know that, I know that, and deep down I think you know that.
Alright, I'll give that one a read, thanks.
Generally speaking, again: I don’t know who you’ve been talking to or what they’ve said, the push against holodomor isn’t to downplay the extent of death, depravation or suffering. The only thing people are trying to say is that it wasn’t a genocide because it wasn’t a series of decisions that explicitly targeted the ukranian population for eradication.
Just so we can stop retreading this ground: there is no downplaying happening here. A bunch of scholars say that there isn’t evidence for a genocide. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t absolute desolation. In some ways the extent is expanded because we can now include the rest of the volga and kazakhstan, which is the real nightmare but never got the kind of traction ukrane did.
No one thinks it’s a win to have a famine where millions died.
The argument for a trans genocide is based on systemic targeting for eradication and shouldn’t be compared to the famine because one is an event that happened nearly a hundred years ago with an extensive (and evolving) historical context and understanding and the other is something happening right now.
Without equal levels of applied scholarship and a precise framework for analysis, comparing the two ends up being that sort of suffering Olympics vernacular that classier people call crass and I tend to just call shitty.
Another book worth checking out is stalins world. It’s not written sympathetically by any means.