Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.

Sure, which is why context is important, and why rando selfies uploaded by someone other than the rando are difficult to place in context and pretty inherently uncomfortable to me. Sexual jokes about other people are also generally uncomfortable to me, but I also recognize that it's a form of humor that is not inherently illegitimate.

My point here is only that "On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt's sexual joke" is not entirely out of left field. There is a clear chain of thought that is not inherently absurd, not just "The first thing thought of when they saw a woman is 'comment on her breasts for no reason'". Your view is that he misread the context - that the context is NOT sexual and humorous, his view is that the context was sexual and humorous to begin with; mine is that these contextless selfies who aren't posted by the, uh, self, lend themselves to this kind of clash.

(To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video but this isn’t the video. Fans wear merch all the time, and merch that has suggestive content still doesn’t give an OK to sexualization.)

I know this is secondary to the main point, but I can't held but return to it - if it's a double entendre in the video and a double entendre in common usage, how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

“On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt’s sexual joke” is not entirely out of left field.

Okay agree. Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.

…how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?

It is, I just phrased it weird. Let me go edit it.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Okay agree.

Cool, we're in agreement. 🙏

It's not appropriate (as the context of the selfie originator is unavailable, and absent that context or other signifiers, any selfie should be assumed to be non-sexual), but it is dependent on an assumption of or misreading of context (presumably in good faith) rather than a sheer bloody-minded determination to give a passing woman the metaphorical wolf-whistle.

Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.

I mean, it's more than a technicality considering your response was to accuse him of having his first thought upon seeing a woman to comment on her breasts unprovoked. "This your first time on the internet?" implying that such comments are inherently acceptable is a dick response from him, so fuck him, but a defensive response of some sort was going to be inevitable given the (ha) context.

If I mess up cleaning a pan because I rarely use pans (tinfoil brigade reporting), messing up cleaning the pan is not made okay by the fact that I do it rarely (I should have been prepared, I should have been more attentive, etc), but if someone accuses me of having left the pan dirty on purpose, I will absolutely respond with vitriol, when otherwise I would have inquired as to what I did wrong or been apologetic (not to imply that that's the average response from someone objectifying someone else inappropriately, simply pointing out that IF they're reachable, they then become less reachable by that human reaction). Because then it's been transformed from a mistake to a deliberate offense.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Completely off topic but it’s funny to me that when we have a cordial disagreement I get pummeled with downvotes—even if we come to an understanding in the end.

The power you wield, PugJesus. Use it responsibly.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Some people just want to dogpile, sadly.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

pugpile, if you will

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

That would be way cuter than downvoting someone for a good faith disagreement!

With all seriousness, while I do actually wish I had that kind of power, the more likely explanation is that you're in the uncomfortable position of speaking truth to power. There IS a sexism problem on Lemmy and it DOES need to be addressed, and that you're vocal in attacking it is inevitably unpopular. I generally take the more moderate side in our disagreements, but that also means that there are inevitably shitheads 'agreeing' with me not because they share my opinion, but simply because I'm commenting in opposition to an opinion they hate even more.

Fact is, while I absolutely believe everything I say, it's also true that nothing would get done if everyone was part of the 'shake hands and make nice' brigade. I definitely stiffen the quills and get pissed when I see sexism that I think is deliberate, but unintentional sexism is still something that must be driven out. Hell, I'm part of the problem in a sense - I've definitely seen edge cases where I thought "Fuck, is this sexist or am I being sensitive?", and left it entirely without comment, not even a "Just wanted to let you know it sounds a bit" or "Could you clarify...?" because I didn't want to wade in.

It's something I criticize others often on other subjects, but the fact is that everyone has issues that they are harder and softer on. People who are part of the asspat brigade may be useful for eventually reaching out and bridging the shitheads to a less shitheaddy mode of existence, but we're fucking useless in driving the fuckers out of places where decent people congregate, and both are necessary - in varying proportions according to the state of a given community. Lemmy needs more people who take a hard line against sexist behavior, not more guys who see where the prickly reaction button is being hit - Lemmy has plenty of us already.

Keep doing what you're doing, spujb. Someone sure as hell has to.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe -2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

yeah exactly. i dont really know why i censored my name but im the one who made the “its not intrinsically evil” comment, i want to give people the chance to see that what they did was weird rather than coming down hard right away.

also if you want the original video: here haha. fair warning the video is nonsensical and verging on word salad.