Most public figures who try to present some form of “masculinity” are just desperate and petty, willing to sacrifice nothing to earn their status, and eager to degrade others to look better by comparison.

A real man produces more than he needs, but takes only that much and ensures the rest goes to those who are less able to sustain themselves. They protect the defenseless, elevate those who are ignored, and invest in a future they won’t personally live to enjoy.

Show me a real man among you. It’s not femininity keeping you from finding one. It’s your own greed and hubris.

[–] Dozzi92@lemmy.world 77 points 2 days ago (2 children)

When I was in the military, the best Marines weren't the ones who could lift the most or run the fastest (though sometimes they did), they were the ones who stayed up late writing up their junior Marines for awards, the ones who skipped their own lunch to teach their squad or platoon how to perform better, and just generally the ones who went out of their own way to improve everyone else's well-being around them, and all the while keeping their mouth shut up how much they were doing for everyone else.

[–] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The whole master-apprentice thing is not really found in America anymore. It is lowkey there in academia, but there is so much admin work that even good PIs struggle. I have not really seen it in my little private industry experience. And I have no public experience to comment.

[–] PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

It does exist in some trades still but that’s also becoming more rare. My father was a farmer and he was always willing to be a mentor to guys he knew who wanted to get into that industry and was willing to help out his neighbor farmers if they needed help. When he died about 10 years ago, all the local farmers came out to help and they helped my family harvest his last crop at no charge to us. Wish that was the way it was in other private sector industries.

[–] papertowels@lemmy.one 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This comment makes me want to read "the way of kings" again....

[–] Dozzi92@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

Kaladin is a G. Currently on Oathbringer. I enjoy a good fantasy series, just hate when I run out of books.

[–] untorquer@lemmy.world 57 points 2 days ago

Real men are also able to access their emotions, express their needs(both emotional and physical), develop and share empathy, and nurture deep relationships within their community.

Though i would argue none of what either of us said has to do with gender.

Relentlessly locking your own humanity away behind a strong man facade built on shame is one of the biggest reason these fuckers become so hateful and make "manliness" seem like such a putrid prospect.

[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

A real man produces more than he needs, but takes only that much and ensures the rest goes to those who are less able to sustain themselves.

A big part of the issue is men constantly being told that they are responsible for everything. So this attitude would only make the problem worse.

[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This is why a positive kind of masculinity also needs to reject patriarchy and capitalism.

“Producing more than you take” doesn’t have to mean money. (Though I did mean money in my original comment, cuz Zuck is a greedy monster.)

Just listening to people more than you demand to be listened to. Doing chores that you know your friends and family hate. Sharing your knowledge. Cooking. Fixing things. There are so many ways you can contribute to your group that don’t take money, and don’t even take much time.

Being financially responsible and helping people when you can is important, don’t get me wrong.

But seeing your worth in purely financial terms is really limiting and unhealthy for the individual, and also tends to create perverse hierarchies inside of families.

[–] djsoren19@yiffit.net 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Right but take what you just said to it's logical conclusion. Why should only men have those responsibilities? All you've really done is create a different, nicer patriarchy, that still expects men to conform to specific gender roles and still expects women to conform to specific gender roles. Consider the inverse, all the people who physically can't produce more than they require to survive, who need additional attention or care, through no fault of their own. Can those people not be men?

You've described just a generally good person, and realistically you've described more women than you have men. The goal should be to get rid of the idea that certain responsibilities are reserved for certain genders completely.

[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Those aren’t unique to men though (except your last paragraph), how is that not general advice?

I think our advice to men should be more:

“Your problems matter”

“Standing on your own two feet (and autonomy) is especially important to most men, so we should change our economy to support that”

I’ve noticed most advice given to men usually boils down to more responsibility or expectation instead of actually giving them something like male specific support programs.

[–] xor@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 2 days ago

there’s no such thing as a “real man”… it’s all just roles society has placed upon different genders….

[–] tmyakal@lemm.ee 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Either this comment is also misogynistic as all hell, or my mother was very masculine.

[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 27 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Masculinity isn't just for men. Just like femininity isn't just for women. A healthy person has a mix of these qualities, along with many others that we don't tend to align with a specific gender.

When I say "a real man", I don't mean it as an objective assessment to stick a person neatly into one of two piles. That's not how gender works, and it's not how being a person in general works.

What I mean is that if you're indulging in behavior like belittling other people for fun or "cool points", or using your power or physical strength to get what you want, and calling that "being a man", then your idea of manhood is a mirage. If you want to aspire to something based on your male gender identity, aspire to humility, vigilance, and service to others. Those are great qualities that anyone can have, but they're especially important for men if we're gonna have a respectful and productive society.

(Edit: I didn't downvote you btw. I thought your comment was pretty reasonable and mild. But I did wanna take the opportunity to elaborate, because this topic can be complex and emotionally charged. We all have a lot of baggage when it comes to gender, and it's hard on the internet to develop rapport with each other.)

[–] eestileib@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It is still misogynistic to say that women who manifest those behaviors are particularly masculine. Those are adult human behaviors.

[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 5 points 2 days ago

I don't know a lot of adult humans who behave that way of either gender.

[–] Lemminary@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

A real man produces more than he needs

And I'm an imaginary man producing just what I need. 👻

[–] lurklurk@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The answer is often more complex

[–] Lemminary@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

The answer is clearly 42i

[–] ThomasCrappersGhost@feddit.uk 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

There is a serious lack actual masculinity among our leaders.

The problem is many people hear these words and instantly jump to toxic masculinity. Which you’re obviously not advocating for, but neither of us are “many people”.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Masculinity has been defined as toxic by default for many.

[–] ThomasCrappersGhost@feddit.uk 3 points 2 days ago

Yup. It is in most or at least many cases.

[–] someacnt@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I wish I were able to achieve even 0.01% of this, I am just born unable.

[–] MutilationWave@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's ok. It's going to suck. Real men and women could provide for you. Not that you're not a real woman/man, but in context.

[–] someacnt@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago

Thanks, but sadly I think there are no real men/women near me.