this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2023
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If electric cars follow this path and aren't replaced with something else like enviro-friendly fuels, electric cars.
I don't have an electric car, I dislike how many artificially limit things like speed, it shouldn't be a paid upgrade if the hardware is capable, the amount of tracking worries me too, like Tesla staff could see through your cabin cameras.
I'd rather have environment friendly fuels that work with older cars, even if that requires a new ECU+Fuel pump.
Gonna run my 90s Toyota until it's physically impossible
Outside of the US and Canada, electric bikes look to be the future instead of mainly electric cars. E-bikes are not just massively more environmentally friendly, they’re also radically reshaping city design to be more livable. I hope the future isn’t just a different kind of car. I hope, for the sake of the environment and society, it’s a world with fewer cars.
But what about rural areas and long term travel? My dad, for example, has to travel about 80 miles in each direction every day to get to and from work. How long would it take him to get there with an E-bike?
This is why I said fewer cars, not no cars. Most people obviously do not drive 160 miles a day. With better infrastructure and public transportation, a 2 car family might go down to 1 car, or replace half of their car trips with other modalities, etc.
Oh nevermind, I guess I didn't read the full message properly.
It's already past the point where only rich people have them. It's currently one of those things where it's actually more expensive to be poor.
I bought an EV because it's cheaper over a few years than getting the cheapest gasoline beater car. It's a bigger cost up front, but the total cost is smaller over few years.
If anything, only rich people will be able to afford keeping the gasoline cars. Similarly to todays vintage lead fueled classics.
I don't know where you are, but in Europe it's much cheaper to buy a used Gasoline car. I just got a 1L petrol car for the equivalent of $10k, I can't find a good electric car for anywhere close to that.
Hello, fellow European. The starting price of electric cars is definitely the biggest issue (and there isn't a sizable second-hand market yet).
If you want to spend even less find out if you can convert your car to LPG. I have been driving with LPG for about 2 years and I couldn't be more satisfied.
According to the german Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Protection, there is not much difference in operating costs between an electric vehicle and a CNG/LPG vehicle. Source: PDF from June 2023
But this does not take into account the price of the vehicle as such. In this case, lpg is much cheaper.
I am in Europe. You have to look past the purchase price.
What I did was to compare the price of buying €3k beater cars throughout the next ten years versus getting an only slightly used EV for €21k that I expect to drive for the same period.
The purchase price is 7 times higher, yes, but the savings on fuel, taxes and financing makes up for it it less than 6 years in my case.
So in short, I had a pretty easy choice in getting an almost new EV instead of continuing buying and repairing scrap cars as I'd previously done for the same reasons.
My car tax (VED) is £20 a year, Vs £0 on electric. Fuel and the extra £20 tax a year doesn't equate to the cost of an EV just yet.
EVs are definitely still a luxury, poor people aren't going round with EVs.
Yeah well, I'm absolutely not saying that EVs are always the cheapest option. In my case it was.
There are many variables to account for when making the decision. I'd just advise people to do the calculations whenever they need a new car. Generally, It's still not that much cheaper that it pays off to get an EV if you already have a functional car, but whenever you need a new one.
I've been thinking about making a webpage to compare car purchases with all kinds of variables, but it's quite a big project to do.
Well that's also what they said, electric cars have expensive upfront cost, but in the long run it's cheaper (gas vs electric cost
Not unless they come up with some new kind of battery tech. There's simply not enough lithium for a global mass adoption of personal electric cars.
I wouldn't worry so much about that. I mean, I am sure battery tech will improve because companies will want to sell the car with the longest range, but in terms of lithium supplies, it is not scarce and it is recyclable.
You’re wrong.
There’s about 1.446 billion cars in use on earth and 26 million tons of proven global lithium reserves. Even if we immediately extracted all that and divided it between all the cars that gives each car about 34 pounds of lithium.
A Tesla, relatively small and lightweight for a car, has 138 pounds of lithium in its battery.
So there’s enough lithium in the whole world for a little under one quarter of the cars we have now if they were all tiny little sports coupes.
Nothing for busses, ships, trains, trams, bikes, mobile phones, computers, power tools, appliances, grid storage, home generators, the list goes on.
E: edited to add the word proven. Proven reserves are reserves that we actually got hands on, took a look at and verified the quality of. There is about four times that in total reserves but those numbers are things like estimated average volume in a particular kind of rock and estimated volume of that rock in the earths crust. Those kinds of numbers aren’t very useful because we’re not gonna run a giant mining machine across the whole surface of the earth to get every last bit of lithium out of it. The whole point of this is to live on the fucking planet not shove the whole thing into an aggregate sorter to get some resources.
Afaik there are such fuels, but are much more expensive. From what I read it could shift and rich will be able to ride vehicless with combustion engines using eco fuel, while us plebs will drive electric
It costs about £1.80 per litre to make your own bio diesel in the uk at the moment using supermarket vegetable oil (or even less if you bulk buy) so I don’t see eco fuels being so expensive that it’s unaffordable to anyone who can already afford a car.
Not an expert, I just said what I heard. But how many people would be able to make fuel at home and be confident enough to pour it in their tank? I imagine there would also need to be some regulations on this.
Buy again - not an expert.
Honestly, I don't even care if that's the case. Cars are becoming more like living rooms on wheels and less engaging overall (less about driving and more about being driven), so I don't even care what I drive when the time comes, so long as it isn't a piece of garbage with a shoddily-built interior. Hell, I'd rather just not have a car at all at that point, but we don't have the infrastructure here (in the US) for that.
Not all EVs are crazy expensive. Some of them are basically at price parity with what a gas version of the same vehicle would cost now.
it's worth noting (not that this makes it better) - that artificially removing features isn't a new thing with electric cars.
It's always been cheaper to build only the more expensive version of something, then artificially cripple it for the cheaper version. CPUs are a good example - most CPUs of a given series are basically the same hardware, it's just that the cheaper versions will be down-clocked, or have some cores deliberately disabled.
Before the tech existed to have heated seats be a subscription service, cars that were sold without that option, would often have the heating hardware still installed in the seats, it just wouldn't be hooked up. Hell, sometimes literally the only difference between the model with heated seats and without was whether they installed the button to turn them on
This statement about cpus isn't entirely correct. In the manufacture of precision electronics, there is always a reasonable chance of defects occurring, so what happens is that all the parts are built to the same spec, then they are "binned" according to their level of defects.
You produce a hundred 24 core cpus, then you test them rigorously. You discover that 30 work perfectly and sell them as the 24 core mdoel. 30 have between one and eight defective cores, so you block access to those cores and sell them as the 16 core model. Rinse and repeat until you reach the minimum number of cores for a saleable cpu.
This is almost certainly not the case in car manufacturing, as while you could sell a car with defective seat heaters at a lower price point, what actually occurs is that cars with perfectly functional seat heaters have that feature disabled until you pay extra for it.
Except the ratios of consumer demand do not always match up neatly with the production ratios. IIRC there have been cases where they've overproduced the top model but expected not to be able to sell them all at the price they were asking for that model, and chose to artificially "cripple" some of those and sell them as a more limited model. An alternative sales strategy would have been to lower the price of the top model to increase demand for it, of course, but that may not always be the most profitable thing to do.
I'd also rather have magic cars, but that won't stop electric cars from being the next wave. At this point there's so little advancement in new fuels that it's effectively impossible to hope for that scenario to occur before ICE fades away.