Hey kbinMeta.
Given the news that beehaw.org are defederating from two of the largest Lemmy instances due to issues with moderation, I thought it may be worth @ernest considering closing registrations here, for a while at least.
I've seen that a handful of other kbin instances have been spun up, however, kbin.social currently dwarfs their user numbers. kbin.social is currently sat at over 28,000 registered users, with the next highest, fedia.io sitting at around 3,000 users. I may be incorrect on this, but as far as I'm currently aware, @ernest is the only admin, I believe he may have mentioned that he's taken a couple of additional trusted users on board, but at this time, I can't find receipts to back that up, however, I am aware of the immense pressure that @ernest is in to keep things not only running smoothly, but also moving forward.
The workload overwhelmed me, and I couldn't read all your messages.
This is in relation to account deletion requests alone, and understandably, this explosion in popularity and userbase was not only unexpected for @ernest, but possibly also for the platform itself:
~~Apparently fedia.io have already disabled open resgistrations due to usercount~~, (although that may be unverified, as this post from the fedia.io admin doesn't suggest that, but still food for thought.). [This is not the case, they just aren't federating, as confirmed by Jerry, thanks! I think Jerry's comment is still very relevant to the topic at hand, however.]
Now, I've already seen a handful of comments denigrating beehaw.org from some of the defederated site users, as well as users local to kbin.social whose accounts were made after the defederation. This is more than likely to result in kbin.social also being defederated from beehaw.org, if not others. I completely understand that this is the nature of the fediverse, and that no one instance is going to be completely open with every other instance, however, I think it's worth considering that we "have our own house in order", namely in the shape of more site-wide moderation, instead of keeping the floodgates open for every reddit refugee or otherwise.
I'm well aware that many may disagree with this, but I think it's something to consider.
Edit: Edited title of post. I just want to clarify, I don't mean close registrations for good, just while things calm down a little bit / ernest has chance to get a solid moderation / admin team in place.
Given the much higher number of Lemmy instances, you may well be 100% correct on that, that is, even trolls may just decide to 'stick with what they know' and continue to use a Lemmy based instance.
Also correct, however, I understand that if a post is local to kbin.social, and had comments from lemmy.world users, in addition to kbin.social users, and a beehaw.org use came to the post, they wouldn't see any of the comments from the defederated users. That is to say, so long as one instance doesn't federate with another, they will never see posts from that instance, regardless of where they are.
I'm not saying that won't still prevent people defederating with kbin.social purely because we're open / federate with another community they specifically defederated from, but there's less reason to if kbin.social maintains a quality userbase.
Another agreement from me here, however, the point of this post is to start a discussion around whether or not we can prevent being overwhelmed with bad apples too early on in the platforms lifespan (although I appreciate we've already addressed this above).
As has been said, at this point, it's entirely up to @ernest, but I think it's worth looking at potentially taking a couple more people on to assist with the moderation side of things.
Yup. there's a ton of lemmy instances that aren't blocked by beehaw, so it's likely any trolls would just use those in the first place.
Think of defederation as "blocking" an instance. if lemmyworld users and beehaw users come to a kbin magazine, lemmyworld users will see everything as proper because they didn't block anyone. beehaw users will see an altered version that hides/removes lemmyworld posts. Lemmyworld users can interact with us like normal, while beehaw users can interact with us, but they won't see anything that lemmyworld users are doing on here. Lemmyworld is blocked from beehaw so they won't get updates from beehaw. Meaning beehaw communities won't sync for them, and beehaw users won't see lemmyworld users/communities. But lemmyworld users will see beehaw posts on kbin magazines.
Keep in mind that kbin is federated with some popularly blocked instances, like lemmygrad. we federate with everyone afaik. the swiss neutrality of the fediverse tbh.
Right I think this is the bigger issue (and less so the drama bout other instances). In terms of lemmyworld users coming here and causing problems.... I don't think it's an issue. kbinauts largely don't have an issue with lemmyworld (we're not crying to block them). and lemmyworld people can interact with our stuff just fine.
however, a larger influx of users from elsewhere (such as what happened with reddit) can potentially change culture. but I think things are still early enough that kbinauts can decide how we want the culture to be here. and I think the consensus seems to be: neutrality, civility, polite discourse, and trying to achieve mutual understandings. I'd say we're doing a good job in that regard :)
That's my only concern here, that's leaving me on the fence. Beehaw defederating kbin would leave me neutral/annoyed at best. Other places will fill the void they leave or we'll do it ourselves out of basic necessity.
But while I do agree trolls from lemmy are more likely to stay there (they already got used to jerboa, etc.,) all they'd be looking for is ease of access. If most lemmy instances start making access harder to combat their own issues, they'll look for somewhere that doesn't.
That doesn't have to be here, but they don't particularly care whether it is, and the fact we do federate with everyone would be seen as a major plus: access to all the worst parts while still retaining the ability to troll everyone else.
It's not here yet and we can build and enforce the culture that we currently have, but it strikes me as likely a when more than an if. And once they do think of us, that kind of culture...doesn't necessarily spread like chickenpox, but it corrodes things.
A matter of years ago, people on reddit were personable and they continually had to live in an atmosphere with more and more shallow assholes, so they adapted to an asshole role.
That Ernest is the only one really suited to address this atm does make me uneasy. He's already swamped enough
It entirely depends on the ethos and direction ernest wants to take this instance. Personally I'm fond of the "open signups, federate with everyone" approach that kbin currently has. If people do not wish to federate with everyone, they can go join another instance that defederates itself from the ones they don't like?
In terms of culture, I do think things will inevitably shift and change as kbin grows. that's an unavoidable part of growing a community. Though I do think having clear guidestones and ethos will help direct people's default assumptions about the platform.
Keep in mind that defederation is a strong action and one that has huge impact. It's not something that results from just a small amount of trouble makers, but as the general larger community as a whole. Beehaw defederated from lemmyworld because they do not like the culture/behavior that lemmyworld users have. lemmyworld can't really resolve this without really changing what they're about. at which point I think a lot of their users would end up leaving.
It's naturally the case that some people will have "clashes" with other people, culturally speaking. you can either try to change yourself, you can block the people you don't like, or you can try to tolerate and accept both clashing cultures with a "agree to disagree" mentality.
beehaw took the stance of blocking. they didn't want to yield to lemmyworld's culture and userbase, nor did they wish to tolerate and accept lemmyworld users in their communities.
kbinauts I think have been pretty good at doing that last option: accepting and tolerating those of different cultures and beliefs and agreeing to disagree. However, that mindset is utterly at odds with the way beehaw does things. In that a regard, I do think some instances may end up blocking kbin simply over philosophy of moderation. But we'll have to see.
From my kbinaut eyes, lemmyworld users are not problematic. sh.itjust.works users are not problematic. I have no issues with those guys. beehaw does. I don't think I'll ever come around to beehaw's way of doing things either, which is why I don't join that site. If kbin starts taking a similar approach to beehaw, I might just end up leaving kbin for another instance.
Troublemakers who spam are indeed sometimes a problem. but unless you get to the point of the culture being on the level of 4chan, personally I don't see a need to defederate.
I think beehaw kinda set themselves up for mass defederation, due to only having 4 mods for the entire site, which is simply not able to tolerate growth that the rest of the fediverse will see.
Totally unrelated to this discussion but my curiosity got me:
What would it look like for someone on beehaw if the comment chain went like this: kbin comment>lemmy.world comment>kbin comment? Would beehaw still see the 3rd comment? Or will it kill everything after the lemmy.world comment, kbin or not?
theoretically beehaw will see the kbin comments, but not the lemmyworld comment. as for how this looks in their ui/site idk. it may just end up hiding everything that's a response to lemmyworld unless you directly access the url for the later kbin comments.
think about what happens on twitter when someone replies to a tweet that is later deleted. on twitter it just says "this tweet was deleted" or something like that, but you can see the replies still if you have the url. I think this might be the case but don't quote me on that.
Basically: all kbin posts are still syncing with beehaw. lemmyworld posts are not. how that displays in their ui is unclear.
Hi, here on a Lemmy account! This post showed in my All feed, so it looks like k.bin and Lemmy are starting to federate more (which I think is great).
I think at this point, even were k.bin signups to be closed, defederation is going to be one of the few ways to avoid bad actors spilling from somewhere. I hope that doesn't happen, but if cultures from Lemmy and k.bin end up different, maybe a way to silo what you see to only your service can be found.
our admin hasn't said anything, but I think the ethos here is "federate with everyone". So if defederation happens, it'll be someone else blocking kbin, not the other way around. We still federate with lemmygrad, for instance, despite many blocking them.