Hey folks
I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.
I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.
Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:
- Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
- Use arguments rather than calling people names
- Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual
With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.
On defederation in general
First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.
I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.
Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.
Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.
Regarding hexbear
Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.
The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.
My own experience with hexbear
I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.
Background
My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).
I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.
Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.
Hexbear user response
Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:
- Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
- Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
- Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier
I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.
Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.
Hexbear admin response
After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:
- They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
- They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
- They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways
Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.
At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.
I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.
Where thing stand right now
I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.
Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.
Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.
I know my instance is blocked and you probably won't see this, but as a parental abuse survivor I really take issue with this trivialization of abuse.
https://arsenalpulp.com/Books/C/Conflict-Is-Not-Abuse
And neither is disagreement.
I won't pretend that hexbear comments are not sometimes mean. But calling them "abusive" is just trivialization .
I clicked show anyways, and was met with someone denying abusive behavior and trying to use their personal history of suffering from abuse to trivialize the actions of brigading, abusive tankies. I've received fucking death threats from Marxists, buddy. Don't tell me I haven't been mistreated.
I can't "brigade" a post thats literally on my front page and which the admin explicitly invited us to participate in.
Conflict isn't and will remain not abuse. And looking at your post history, you've said plenty of mean things to people on hexbear in their own goddamn instance so don't try to take the moral highground there buddy.
Lmao I've had Hexbear blocked for weeks. And I don't tend to play nice with bloodthirsty fascists. You're all the same. I get death threats from the insane right, I get death threats from the insane left, the only difference is the flavor of the authoritarian hellhole they want to institute
Thats our attitude as well. Your problem is that you think the people who have been historically proven to be better at fighting fascism are the actual fascists. Its enlightened centrist garbage.
And that's why we need to defederate from Hexbear, because communist authoritarians and right wing fascists are perfectly happy to cooperate until their best buddies they invaded Poland with betray them. Then, it's up to the liberals attacked and abused by both sides to fix the fucking mess.
This is just ahistorical in like 5 different ways I wouldn't even know where to begin, nor do I consider you worth it. Have fun.
Oooooh now he's mad because he can't argue with the fact that Stalin was Hitler's military ally and economic partner until Operation Overlord
Ask the Poles how they feel about the fucking Marxists
It's not inarguable, it just isn't worth the effort when someone drops a nugget like that to take the time to write out "why two countries that wanted to destroy each other made this agreement" because you are going to just dismiss it out of hand anyway. Most of us have had this stupid argument multiple times and even though neoliberal historians agree with us, ignorant Redditors to the right of Robert Conquest still treat it as self-evident that their harebrained interpretation of history is true.
But please, call me abusive next, after you equated people like me with Nazis.
Idk man if you partition Poland with a country and sign a non aggression pact with them, they're military allies. Idgaf what mental gymnastics you use. Authoritarians collaborate until it becomes time for them to fight with each other over the rubble and fields of slaughter that they have divided amongst themselves. It is the way of history.
You know the western powers signed non agression pacts with Nazi Germany too right? And then did appeasment?
And those pacts were mistakes. But when the Soviet and German Empires invaded Poland jointly, the Western European liberal democracies went to war. While the Soviets only did so after two years of happily dividing the people and treasure and land of Poland with their Nazi friends and allies, and supplying them in their efforts to complete the rape of Europe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
Yes, Stalin was happy to propose stationing an army within Poland to "deter German aggression"
I know
The point was that he wanted Poland. When the UK and France said no, he went to Hitler, who said yes. And signed a military alliance. Fascists gonna fash together.
You're just constantly and tiringly arguing from the assumption that liberals are only ever bad because they "made mistakes" but I swear they mean well and are trying to do the right thing! Despite the incredible death toll that can be laid at their feat.
But communists are malicious and trying to do evil.
Every time.
That does accurately describe historical reality. To steal the words of a well known historical dickhead, with a long history of both atrocity and stalwart success, liberalism is the worst political ideology, except for all others which have been tried.
Perfect example! Winston Churchill was a racist who committed intentional genocide in India.
And he wasn't just "making mistakes". He was an evil man doing evil things on purpose.
Seems like that Cleverdawny guy is biased against the Left like OP was.
Yes, they're an ideologically committed centrist liberal to a pretty extreme degree. The absolute refusal to accept the crimes of liberal capitalism as anything but "mistakes" that they "learned from" is pretty detached from reality.
They probably believe in the invisible hand of the market, the tooth fairy and dinosaurs too. The moron.
Oh that's a good Churchill quote, my favorite is "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. They will reproduce like rabbits, famine or no."
Totally the wholesome Marvel good guys though
This is historical revisionism. The soviets did absolutely everything they could to try and convince France and the UK to take action against Hitler but they were hoping Hitler would attack the USSR.
The ACTUAL historic timeline is like this:
1: The United States Bourgeoisie bankrolled the rise of fascism in Europe.
2: The bourgeois leaders of England, France, Poland, Finland and other Western European nations either ignored, enabled, or appeased Hitler's worst behavior in the buildup to WW2.
3: The bourgeois leaders of these countries, England in particular, pushed for disastrous bilateral security arrangements which created a domino effect leading to war, while ignoring the USSR's suggestion of collective, anti-fascist security arrangements.
4: The bourgeois leaders of these countries pursued a policy not of containing fascist aggression, but of diplomatically isolating the USSR, in the hopes that Hitler would go East and carry out an anti-communist genocide on their behalf.
5: The bourgeois leaders of these countries, having ignored or stalled collective security proposals from the USSR, actively made bilateral non-aggression pacts with Hitler before Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed, making the USSR the last in a long line of nations to sign non-aggression pacts with Hitler, after the USSR's collective security proposals fell through.
6: The USSR only signed Molotov-Ribbentrop to buy time. The USSR only invaded East Poland to prevent a German front from forming right at the Soviet border. This is because attempts to make mutual security arrangements with Poland fell through. The Soviets only moved into the region after the existing government had literally fled the country, leaving it ungoverned. 2 million jews in eastern poland were saved from the nazis by this action.
7: The USSR tried to purchase a strategic corridor of land from Finland that the nazis could easily use to invade the USSR. The USSR not only wanted to legally purchase this land from Finland, but to trade Finland more acres of land in exchange. i.e. an asymmetrical trade that would have ultimately benefited Finland. Finland refused because the fascist leadership of Finland wanted to see Germany invade the USSR through this strategic corridor. This led directly to the Winter War. The Finnish lost the winter war but used their intelligence that they gathered during it to collaborate with the nazis.
8: When the North Atlantic allies finally teamed up with USSR after their strategy of appeasing Hitler backfired, they immediately attempted to make asymmetrical security arrangements that would have obligated the USSR to commit far more troops and resources to the war than any other ally, essentially using the USSR as a shield against the very fascist powers they had spent the better part of a decade appeasing. The British in particular kept stalling on arrangements and pretending to be confused.
9: When the war was over the North Atlantic allies, led by the USA, who came out of the war richer than any other country on Earth, immediately committed to rehabilitating nazis, blaming the USSR, who was decimated by the war, for causing the war, and created NATO to begin encircling the USSR, 6 years before the creation of the Warsaw pact.
10: The North Atlantic allies immediately set to using the Marshall plan to rebuild the fascist German, Italian, and Japanese economies, indebting them to the United States, and orienting them towards anti-communist policy.
11: The North Atlantic allies to tried to use the Marshall plan as a proto-IMF to privatize and deregulate the economy of the war-torn USSR, and open it up to foreign capital. That the USSR rejected this was framed as aggression and used as a justification for beginning the cold war.
But hey, don't just take my word for it, or this rough outline of what is contained in well regarded books (I implore you to read some). How about we read Albert Einstein's words spoken at the time these events actually occurred?
A lot to unpack in this speech but the basics of what Einstein says are:
The USSR made all efforts to stop the war happening.
The western powers(UK, France, US, etc) shut the USSR out of European discussions and betrayed Czechoslovakia.
Molotov-Ribbentrop was an unhappy last resort that they were driven to, that the western powers were attempting to drive the nazis into attacking the USSR and that's why they would not help the USSR stop them.
The USSR supported everyone while the other powers (UK, France, US, etc) strengthened the nazis and Japanese.
Highly doubt they'll even read this one lol
This topic comes up so often that I have this on copy-paste for it. It's incredibly annoying how much learning history from reddit comment sections and memes have managed to fill people's brains with nonsense and without countering it wherever it comes up that revisionism will only perpetuate and spread.
This was incredibly well written, i'm bookmarking this.
Do you have any reading suggestions for this topic? My WWII history knowledge is quite American
David Glantz' When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler and Richard J. Evans trilogy are lib but pretty good reading. Libcom also has a pretty good list of worthwhile reading: https://libcom.org/article/world-war-ii-reading-guide
Thank you for picking this one up for me, as it were
It's one of the ones that I feel this copy-paste "solves" so it's pretty simple. I've been tempted to make a new reddit account purely to post it everywhere after searching for "molotov". But I'm lazy. No doubt that the various feds of the world will figure out a new narrative to counter it if it caught on too.
Operation overlord was in 1944, Barbarossa was in 1941. For anyone who is struggling to figure out how seriously to take this commenter.
Tbf, even a colonial genocidal fascist like Churchill thought the Polish were unreliable and likely to accede to Nazism ☹️
Not the Jewish ones though, can't seem to find them
Google Chamberlain appeasement. Democratic countries aligned with Nazis too, because they didn't want war. War fucking sucks, and avoiding it is logical.
Chamberlain wanted to collaborate with the Nazis. Stalin wanted to have the industrial/military capacity to defeat them.
All military leaders wanted to avoid war with Nazis because they saw what happened in WW1. War fucking sucks to be in, and avoiding it is a good goal.
Liberals dismantled those colonial empires. Liberals liberated Czechoslovakia from the yoke of the Soviet Empire and helped ensure Austrian neutrality and freedom. Liberals are not saints, but don't pretend to be. Liberals just focus on making things better, one step at a time.
This is the same argument as "but whites also FREED the slaves" and "but men also GAVE the women the vote".
Who dismantled those colonial empires?
The books title is correct but the actual content has a lot of abuse apologia
Oh, thats good to know, can you provide more detail?
No, I just heard it from a commie who knows more about abuse than me