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-71

Average convo with liberals when Ukraine comes up (lemmy.nz)

submitted 8 months ago by bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml

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[–] Garfield@feddit.uk 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Ah yes, the famous "free referendum" held under gunpoint, how could I forget?? Also, can you cite any source for the "ethnic cleansing" being perpetrated by the Ukrainian against the russians since 2014 in the Donetsk and Luhansk? Because the UN from when russia was still sitting in the council reports something completely different... https://share.google/XaamDlq40m8hEDyOG

Cowbee replied to you and included links to some propaganda websites, while your perfectly reasonable comment was removed because, looks up rule 1, you apparently weren't "civil and nice".

I spent the time fact-checking a few claims in that comment and one of the articles (first one I clicked on) in order to be able to confidently state what should be exceedingly obvious to all: Cowbee is intentionally spreading propaganda with lies and distortions.

That puts all of Cowbee's commentary into question.

I decided to look at just one of those websites, https://sarahwestall.com/yes-its-true-evidence-of-genocide-crimes-against-humanity-towards-russians-in-ukraine/, which has the following claims:

In 2020, Russian-language schools were eliminated (in March 2020, Vladimir Zelensky signed the law “On Full General Secondary Education”, which eliminated Russian-language schools in the country from September 2020).
IT'S A LIE, BECAUSE: https://ukranews.com/en/news/689826-zelenskyy-signs-secondary-education-law-with-3-ukrainian-language-learning-models-for-national / archive.org show that this was not a ban... Understandably controversial and worthy of debate, but clearly not a ban, therefore making it a lie.
14/06/2020 The Ministry of Culture of Ukraine has decided on the candidacy of a new language ombudsman, proposing for this position the extremely odious Lviv activist Svyatoslav Litinsky, who “Called Russians “pig-dogs””
IT'S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: In June 2020, the Ministry of Culture considered potential candidates for the position because the first ombudsman, Tetyana Monakhova, resigned. Svyatoslav Litynskyi (Litinsky) was mentioned in media and activist circles as a possible candidate. He was never appointed. The position ultimately went to Taras Kremin (appointed July 2020), a far more moderate and mainstream figure.
05/08/2020 Irina Farion said that the Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine remained “beyond the country’s historical paradigm.” “Their historical homeland is Muscovy, I really want them to be comfortable there. They must pack luggage – and go there. “They shoot us with their language”
IT'S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Irina Farion was a fringe extremist voice, not a representative of Ukraine or its government. Her statements reflect her ideology, not state policy, and using her quotes to claim persecution of Russian speakers is deeply misleading.
01/07/2021 The Verkhonva Rada adopted the law “On the indigenous peoples of Ukraine”, Russians were not included in the indigenous peoples
IT'S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Russians are not classified as an indigenous people because they have an existing nation-state (the russian federation). This means that they are considered a national minority, the same as hungarians or romanians, and not an indigenous people. This is standard international practice.
In 2014, the future president of Ukraine, Zelensky, spoke to the Ukrainian military, who were carrying out a punitive operation in the Donbas. Zelensky said from the stage: “Guys, I bow to you that you are protecting us from all sorts of scum!”
IT'S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Zelensky did say words to the effect of: "thanking soldiers for defending Ukraine and protecting civilians from armed militants." In some recordings and reports, phrases like “захищаєте нас від усякої нечисті / всякого бруду” appear. This is colloquial Ukrainian/Russian slang, roughly meaning “armed thugs,” “criminals,” or “violent militants.” Crucially: He was not referring to civilians. He was not referring to Russian speakers. He was not referring to Donbas residents as a group. He was referring to armed groups fighting Ukrainian forces in 2014.

I encourage everyone to be vigilant against propaganda, and to avoid falling into the gish gallop trap that is commonly used. Take a short amount of quality time to pick one lie or one distortion of the truth apart, then call the poster/commenter out on it to ensure it isn't left unchallenged, then move on with your life.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I included links to valid sites, as well as to entirely western sources. It sounds like, more than anything, you're upset with the facts at hand and how they are presented. A key example from yourself:

01/07/2021 The Verkhonva Rada adopted the law “On the indigenous peoples of Ukraine”, Russians were not included in the indigenous peoples

IT’S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Russians are not classified as an indigenous people because they have an existing nation-state (the russian federation). This means that they are considered a national minority, the same as hungarians or romanians, and not an indigenous people. This is standard international practice.

Russians are the ones native to the Donbass region, which was added to Ukraine only a century ago. The fact that the Russian Federation exists does not mean that ethnic Russians aren't indigenous to the Donbass region, and as such deserve special protections, and certainly not the ethnic cleansing they are subject to.

Same with phrasing Ukraine's language laws as a ban. It isn't a lie, you're just more upset with those that take issue with Kiev cracking down on Russian speakers and are getting caught up in the phrasing. Ukraine is cracking down on Russians, and Russians were obviously upset. You're doing the same thing people who try to claim there's no systemic racism in the US because the laws don't explicitly target people of color.

As for the person you're defending, they admitted to being a Euronationalist:

A racist:

A dehumanizer of slavic people:

And defended their homophobia by saying I need to learn more about my own pansexuality:

You're defending an anti-communist, Euronationalist, homphobic racist. In other words, the archetypical fascist, who is in this case trying their best to minimize the crimes against humanity of a far-right neo-Nazi regime that is ethnically cleansing their territory of Russians.

I encourage everyone to be vigilant against propaganda, and to avoid falling into the gish gallop trap that is commonly used. Take a short amount of quality time to pick one lie or one distortion of the truth apart, then call the poster/commenter out on it to ensure it isn’t left unchallenged, then move on with your life.

I just did this for you, thanks for the advice!

[–] Garfield@feddit.uk 0 points 7 months ago

Russians are the ones native to the Donbass region, which was added to Ukraine only a century ago. The fact that the Russian Federation exists does not mean that ethnic Russians aren’t indigenous to the Donbass region, and as such deserve special protections, and certainly not the ethnic cleansing they are subject to.

Indigenous peoples are generally understood as populations that pre-date modern states and empires in a territory, with continuous cultural, linguistic, and social presence prior to colonization.

ie. not indigenous. However, as a recognised minority, russian speakers are afforded protections, along with other minorities.

Before 2014, and before the russian military sent troops and equipment to back separatist proxies, there wasn’t a war in Donbas. The loudest culture war arguments between russian and Ukrainian identity mostly played out among politicians and oligarchs who found them useful. For ordinary people in Donetsk and Luhansk, 2013 looked pretty normal: work, school, family life, sports. Life wasn’t affluent, but it was peaceful.

What changed everything was Russia’s direct military involvement in 2014. By supplying weapons, fighters, and command support, on the basis of exaggerated or outright false claims about threats to Russian speakers, it turned what had been political tension and limited unrest into a real war. Russia's intervention, not everyday life in Donbas, is what destroyed the stability people had.