The behavioural cue of ‘flexible self-protection’ is a way to establish whether an animal feels pain, scientists say

Crickets that received the hot probe “overwhelmingly” directed their attention to the affected antenna – they groomed it more frequently, and tended to it over a longer period of time, he says. “They weren’t just agitated and flustered. They were directing their attention to the actual antennae that was hit with this hot probe.”

Link to the paper

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[–] h_ramus@piefed.social -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

"Feel" is something that requires consciousness and a sense of awareness that the pain being experienced is self-related. Consciousness requires complex systems and a nervous system which insects do not possess. Whilst reactive and reflexive actions are performed, whether they experience pain as a personal subjective phenomenon is something that isn't tested. Reaction isn't a proxy to consciousness.

Would a bacteria "feel" pain because it reacts to the environment?

I say this as someone that has almost a Buddhist approach to respecting living creatures. However, the science of consciousness and a physicalist approach inform my views.

[–] Lumidaub@feddit.org 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Does it matter whether pain is felt "as a personal subjective phenomenon"? It's still pain. Maybe I'm unclear on what exactly that phrase means.

[–] h_ramus@piefed.social 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

For example, when under anesthesia and having skin pricked without being made aware/conscious that the skin has been damaged and the body is working to restore it. This would be viewed as "feeling" pain as the body adjusts and focuses resources in addressing it. However, the experience of pain was not possible due to lack of awareness impeding a conscious representation of reality.

[–] Lumidaub@feddit.org 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Doesn't anaesthesia mean that the pain signal that would be transmitted via nerves to the brain is suppressed? I don't see how that could be viewed as feeling pain.

[–] h_ramus@piefed.social 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Yes, exactly my point. How can an insect feel pain when they're devoid of the complex machinery that allows them to have pain emotion and connect the pain experience to a self.

I took more issue with the use of "feel" as that's normally associated with a human experience of feeling. An insect lacks "hardware" to approximate a human experience of feeling.

[–] Lumidaub@feddit.org 1 points 2 months ago

The paper in the OP does suggest though that they feel pain? Apparently there is a signal transmitted to the brain or they wouldn't react. What hardware is lacking?

[–] RecursiveParadox@piefed.social 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You really, really don't want to bring consciousness theory to what is essentially a phenomenology fight.

[–] h_ramus@piefed.social 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Trying to bring the difference between nocioception, experience of pain and having a subjective experience of pain. Different physical and emotional phenomena.

Does a crab look like it's feeling pain when it yanks one of its claws out? Mostly seems unphased and it has a far more complex biology than an insect.