this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2026
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Politics then science has the cart before the horse so to speak. It ought to be the other way around. I'll give a small example of what I mean. When someone gets their PhD they're getting a degree in philosophy of something. We could have similarly said their degree is heavily philosophy based but it's another sentiment entirely to say it is a degree in philosophy. Science is the singular most powerful cognitive structure ever created by mankind to determine truth and it ought to be the core of the means through which we govern ourselves. Anything else is just not in the heart of seeking truth, much less the truth on how best to organize and maintain society for the optimized wellbeing of the society's citizens. Science doesn't need a middleman.
Science is not independent of philosophy. There's idealist science, metaphysical science, etc, all of which are wrong. There is no such thing as science without philosophy, because science is an attempt by humans to understand the world. Humans are all philosophers, as we all have a world outlook. By rejecting study of philosophy as it relates to science, you are ignoring preconcieved biases, rather than acknowledging them and correcting the misconceptions.
This is why Marxism-Leninism is correct, and why all science must be done from a dialectical materialist standpoint.
I mean yeah the scientific method and the tools of science, namely mathematics are indeed branches of philosophy, so is aesthetics but that doesn't mean science is aesthetics even though they both are philosophy. Now if the claim that Marxism-Leninism is "correct" aka is the most optimal form of governance for producing human wellbeing then of course a system dedicated to finding through scientific enquiry the most optimal means of governance will scientifically prove it is through all possible measurements. There's no need to have feelings when we can have proof, quantifiable, measurable, repeatable proof. Once again science and specifically the scientific method doesn't need hand holding, the process will derive the most optimal means of governance regardless of people's seemingly infallible worship of this political system or that political system.
You're still treating science like it's not a process gone through by humans. Science once posited that race science was correct in order to justify eugenics. We need to be aware of our world outlook and correct it before we begin to use science, otherwise we come to incorrect conclusions and incorrect propositions. That's my point.
Marxism-Leninism is correct not because it is a "form of governance" (it isn't) but because it's a living social science grounded in scientific understanding of the world.
You're correct, the best aspect of science is the self revision built into it unlike other systems. The problem with a lot of political philosophies is they suffer from the same blindness but don't have a system that is ultimately self revising. Once again if what you are saying is true then it will be shown through repeatable measurement, and testing. There's no need to depend on feelings when we can have facts. If Marxism-Leninism is the most optimal form of governance for producing human wellbeing then a system designed to discover the most optimal form of governance will reproduce it. Putting political philosophy before science is putting the cart before the horse, aka Marxism-Leninism is a good hypothesis we can test using a stronger mental construct called the scientific method.
I already said Marxism-Leninism is not a "form of governance." The fact that you repeat this claim leads me to believe that you aren't actually reading what I'm writing.
Phikosophy, our world outlook, is already before science. The way we see the world and understand it determines how we view science and perform it. This is why vulgar materialists, as opposed to dialectical materialists, tried to prove race theory correct and thus advocate for eugenics. Science is not neutral. The world around us, the material world, does not care how we interpret it beyond how we change it. However, there is no such thing as a perfectly neutral observer, we all have preconceived biases.
Marxism-Leninism is already scientific, the scientific method is a tool employed by it already. You're trying to remove science from the context it exists in.
I think we've run afoul of two issues. How do you define Marxism-Leninism? Through which means do you know its correctness?
If you know its correctness through implementation and then measuring the results then that's science testing a hypothesis. For example I know my nose is between my eyes because I can measure through my senses and test that idea repeatedly until I have statistical confidence that's the location of my nose. If for some reason the location of my nose changes then that information can be updated with testing and measurement most likely through my senses.
If you know through some other means like spiritual revelation then it's still the case that the concept will have measurable outcomes we can use to test and compare with other concepts to verify its correctness.
Marxism-Leninism is an ideological framework. Essentially, it fronts dialectical materialism, the materialist conception of history, and Marxist political economy as correct. There is no one "Marxist-Leninist form of governance," just as in real life there is no one universally correct form of governance. However, all of the component parts of Marxism-Leninism are correct, including dialectical materialism, which is the basis of correct scientific analysis and interpretation. It is not a replacement for the scientific method, but a way we understand the world.
What you describe is broadly empiricism. The limits of pure empiricism are that, if we are being truly pure, we do not draw connections between linked phenomena. In other words, we do not assume gravity will be the same tomorrow as it is today, because we have not yet tested it. As the world is constantly changing on both a micro and macro scale, this means each test is in fact fresh, with fresh conditions. Empiricism, taken to the extreme, denies this understanding.
Dialectical materialism expands upon empiricism by recognizing the interconnection of everything, and that knowledge is something continuous. As we test the world, we gain a better understanding of it, and therefore the world is always changing so our knowledge is always becoming outdated as long as we are not continuously testing and practicing. Through practice, we gain better knowledge, with which we can better predict what will happen.
There's nothing spiritual about Marxism-Leninism. Knowledge comes from practice, of course it does. However, without acknowledging that we all have a world outlook, this solidifies what might be incorrect, such as idealism or metaphysics, as has often happened in the field of science.
I see the issue now. I was operating with the common definition or the definition one gets when you search Marxism-Leninism. That being
Marxism-Leninism is a communist political ideology based on the ideas of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin, focusing on a vanguard party, state-led economies, and the overthrow of capitalism. With the primary ideas of a vanguard party or a dedicated group of leaders guides the working class to launch a successful political revolution. Dictatorship of the proletariat, the working class holds state power to run society and block capitalist opposition during the transition to socialism. Democratic Centralism, decisions are made through open debate inside the party, but once a choice is final, all members must support it completely. Command Economy, the government takes control of property, industry, and resources to build a planned socialist system.
By any standard definition I can easily find it doesn't deal with a process of discerning truth through measurement or testing as the scientific method does.
Those are all parts of Marxism-Leninism, and the basis of Marxism-Leninism is dialectical materialism. Here's Lenin outlining the basics of Marxism in The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism:
Later on, he describes the philosophical section:
It's incredibly difficult to summarize an entire ideology in a short definition, especially one made by non-MLs.
Sounds a bit like the Bible in that it's self referentially true. If there's a hypothesis, measurement, and test then that's science. If one takes that and adds other ideas onto it it's science plus some other ideas. So far I haven't seen anyone use Marxism-Leninism to discover new particles, new methods of computation, medical treatments, and so on.
You can have whatever ideas you want but ultimately there will be some outcome from them that's measurable, even faith (or lack thereof) has measurable outcomes in the psyche and physiology of an individual or even a populace.
You see even science is used to legitimize these ideas within your own comment. That is we know ultimately through the scientific method if something is valid. If something has no measurable effect on reality then it can be noted but it's not of much concern. Like for instance maybe on the tip of every match is ten thousand angels doing the moonwalk, if it has no effect on anything it's not awfully important.
I'm not arguing against science, I'm arguing against the idea that we can perform science without an underlying philosophical outlook.
I agree, the underlying philosophical framework I'm talking about is measurably and methodically increasing individual and societal human wellbeing through metrics like the human development index, gross domestic product purchasing power parity, and environmental impact. Few policies will be a win across the board but there can be an optimization of multiple metrics to increase wellbeing individually and overall.
I don't think we need anything more than just that, or some self referentially true quasi religious faith in abstract concepts. Let's get back to actual real world measurable and quantifiable wellbeing of people and humanity. We don't need faith in politics or governance when we can have facts. Afterall what is the actual goal of society? Is It for individuals to have their philosophy win or is it to increase the wellbeing of humanity?
That's not a philosophical framework, it's a moral stance. Philosophy is about how we interpret the world. This is why you ironically are retreating into abstraction while accusing me of doing so, when I've done no such thing. I'm not arguing faith over facts, I'm arguing that the way we interpret facts is based on our world outlook. By denying world outlooks exist, you let your subconscious world outlook determine it for you.
You can say it isn't but science is a philosophical framework and science with the application of measurably increasing human wellbeing is even more so. I'm not sure which philosophy will change facts around physiological wellbeing like starvation, lack of access to basic necessities, measurable cognitive health and so on. You can be of any political affiliation yet reality will still be there waiting for you.
Science is not a philosophical framework, and you're now describing a moralistic reasoning for it, not a world outlook. Philosophy changes how we view the origin and causes of starvation, lack of access to basic necessities, and more. The philosophy you seem to be pushing is a vulgar approach to empiricism, rather than a more accurate dialectical materialist philosophy.
Here's an example. Do you believe historical change is primarily driven by a development of ideas, or material conditions?
Once again you can say it isn't but it indeed very much is a philosophical framework stemming from the philosophical foundations of logic and reason. Is it better to have a particular outlook on starvation or to actively be ending it through the most optimal means via evidence informed planning and practices? Reality doesn't care what we think about it. You can take any angle you want on it but it'll be there as it is.
As for change its always been guns, germs and steel. The philosophy you're speaking of was an inefficient middleman towards change and development. If for instance a society follows a diety who says cleanliness is holy and they were more clean aka more biologically fit then they were accidentally discovering something true which could have been directly discovered via science. Them having that faith helped but not as much as having a framework for determining facts.
You're abstracting the problem of denying the influence of how we view the world on how we view results of science, which is ironically enough a metaphysical error. It's of course better to be actively ending starvation, but that wasn't the question. The way we interpret facts determines how we go about ending starvation. Of course reality doesn't care about what we think of it, but the way we interact back with reality certainly does!
As for the question, you dodged it. The answer is that the development of history is a result in shifting material conditions, which changes how we think and reshape the world. Like it or not, religion was in fact early science. Science itself is not a philosophy, it's how we understand the world. What you are grasping at is a vulgar materialist conception of science at best, but this misses how change and development actually occur, and results in errors by abstraction.
This is the reason world outlook is important, you're assuming you already have the correct world outlook while refusing to grapple with the fact that you have one. It's Schrödinger's philosophy.
I mean yeah if we viewed starvation as some uncontrollable demonic force of the body then that would change things but would that be better or worse than the scientific approach? Maybe you have an example to better hit home the point you're getting at.
All forms or attempts of understanding reality aren't early science as in they weren't employing the scientific method in full but observation, testing, and measuring are basic aspects of being alive and aware. I know my nose is on my face through observation, testing, and measurement.
I'm aware reality can be strange, there's a plethora of epistemological arguments to show one the limits of science, but we're not talking about what lies beyond measure and testing or at least I'm not. There's lots of philosophical ideas about things we can not measure or test. Once again what does not appreciably effect reality measurably is worth awareness but not as much as what can be measured and directly influenced.
I wouldn't suggest one use science to attempt to understand epistemology but I would suggest it for methodically increasing societal wellbeing. The view one takes may change their behavior but it won't change physics. They can believe they can fly unassisted but will fall to their death all the same when leaping from a building.
You're still not getting it, both are "scientific approaches." What you are describing as science is merely science with a mechanistic materialist outlook, one that relies on vulgar empiricism and removes the room for logical analysis of what has been empirically studied. Your philosophy underlining your science is better than religious science, but inferior to dialectical materialist science. It's all science, yours is just incomplete for the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the weaknesses of it.
You skipped giving an example. What tangible real world examples do you have to back up your claims? You seem well convinced so you must have many good examples to support your case where material science failed at increasing human wellbeing while dialectic material science produced a better outcome.
Fair enough. Mechanistic materialism does not understand change or development properly. When taken as a social science, this manifedtd in the form of liberalism. Trying to reform and fix a system that cannot be fixed, because it is necessarily trending in a definite direction, towards centralization and monopoly. Trying to means-test welfare fixes does not address the concrete problems with imperialism and late-stage capitalism.
The dialectical materialist approach can more accurately identify how we got here, where we are heading, and how we can best steer this in our own interests. Socialism becomes not just an answer because someone designed it, as the Utopians tried, but because it is the logical next step in production, moving from market-based distribution to planned economy.
Assuming ones scope of testing is limitied to a specific political paradigm or collection of policies I would agree but that's not what I'm speaking about. We're still lacking legitimate real world examples of your claims. Once again you seem thoroughly convinced so I imagine you have quite an awareness of legitimate real world examples to prove these ideas. Where exactly does science fail and Marxism-Leninism succeed in providing better outcomes for society and people, particularly in regards to human and societal wellbeing. Please keep in mind I mean science with the soul focus of increasing individual and societal wellbeing and not science for any purposes whatsoever.
Again, you're pretending I'm arguing against science. I'm not arguing against science, I am arguing against vulgar empiricist forms of science, and not dialectical materialist forms of science. I explained the limitations of refusing to acknowledge that science is interpreted by humans, therefore philosophy impacts the way we read results.
Sure but can you give one singular real world example? I keep asking and again you are deeply convinced of your idea so I'm assuming you have many real world cases that exemplify exactly what you're talking about.
I gave you an example already, one deeply relevant to our conversation considering it centers social science. The liberals that believe they can simply keep trying different reforms and testing them empirically are right along with you, but this ignores the gradual changes in how wealth is distributed and capital is concentrated.
I mean that really doesn't have to do with what I'm speaking about though and I've already addressed that. Like yeah if one is set on a particular political philosophy or collection of policies that's going to seriously limit the solution space. That's more so the issue with that example than it being an issue with using the scientific method as a means of governance.
I'm not talking about political philosophy, but how we actually interpret empirically tested data. I never made the claims you believe me to be making.
Let's get back to the beginning here. We were talking about Marxism-Leninism and how it is superior to vulgar empiricism and of course I've kept on with my original point from the beginning of using the scientific method to determine the best policies and political structures for governance, best in those that measurably increasing human wellbeing.
I guess you could bring in something like the double slit experiment and lot of esoteric science in which there isn't a clear way to tell which interpretation is the correct one or if it really maps to reality to begin with aka maybe the math works but that's not actually what's happening. Although I wouldn't see the connection between that and deciding how best to structure a city.
It really doesn't take much to see if people are healthy and happy, are prospering and living in a better state of being than they were before a policy was implemented.
Okay, then returning, vulgar empiricism is inferior to dialectical materialism because the dialectical materialist understands how change occurs and develops, while vulgar materialists fail to. I gave an example of how at a macro level this manifests in either focusing on reformism or revolution and development.
Why don't you propose an example of how you would use the scientific method in practice to test for a better system, and we will see if you make metaphysical errors in your approach. After all, my point is that philosophy is simply how we view the world, and we all have a given philosophy, even if we don't acknowledge it, and it determines how we interpret the objective reality of the world.