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submitted 2 months ago by floofloof@lemmy.ca to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] Magister@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'm a software developer since the 90s, basically before the internet, we had some C books for reference and that's it. I can tell you that I started last year to use copilot in vscode and some chatgpt on a web page, and it basically changed my world, and all my 50+ years old coworkers are amazed by what it can do really.

You are right it will not fade at all in software development.

[-] tyler@programming.dev 25 points 2 months ago

Completely disagree. The difficult part of software development was never writing code OR speed of delivery. It was understanding requirements and problem solving. LLMs still can not do either of those things and there is no evidence they ever will be able to.

An example of how harmful LLMs actually are to development can succinctly be described with an issue I had a few weeks ago. I found an issue in an open source project, code was fine if a bit hard to understand. I came up with a PR to fix the problem.

In the time from me checking out the code to submitting the PR, a little less than 24 hours, the maintainer had completely rewritten the entire project with Claude. It was complete nonsense. Incredibly difficult to understand. Abstracting things that didn’t need abstracting. My PR was useless, because the entire project was new. The maintainer definitely didn’t understand the changes either. If a bug came up there’s no way AI would be able to solve it (the bug was still there even though the code was entirely new).

LLMs don’t understand the code. They just make things that look like they will work. And then a human has to maintain it (or keep paying billions of dollars for Claude to try to fix it).

[-] chunes@lemmy.world 18 points 2 months ago

the person in your scenario is just fkin stupid. When people say that llms are helpful for coding, they aren't talking about telling an llm to rewrite an entire codebase.

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

You are right, but right now we are living in a very messy reality where it's hard to know who's being stupid and who is using it well. One person I know that, well, I was never a huge fan of his work but at least it was somewhat serviceable is now all-in on AI and his code has been rewritten in a similar manner as the parent poster comments. He's got no idea how it works or how it should worked, the AI decided to rewrite it in an entirely different language, and it's a buggy mess and it never fixes the bugs without making new bugs. Then he hit his token quota 3 weeks early and basically said he was going to stop working on it because he no longer could manually work the codebase. He didn't ask for a rewrite, but AI advised him that his language choice was a poor fit and reworked things in another language, one that none of us use to that level of seriousness. It also made it largely based on super convoluted regular expressions.

The problem is that the leadership is singing the praises of these people, they were on their 'leaderboards' of AI adoption and much like the craze of praising "lines of codes", we are neck deep in the most stupid non-technical evaluation of technical work you could imagine.

[-] Promethiel@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

In other words, you're arguing that their usage without discernment is detrimental.

Cory agrees on this very same article, and it also includes the same nuance this chain is trying to give voice to:

The other question Suresh implicitly raises is: "How can you reconcile the failure of AI in the enterprise with the individual claims of skilled technologists who insist that AI is helping them do great work?" The answer is that these AI users are "centaurs" – experienced workers who are assisted by automation on terms that they set for themselves.

Thanks to their skill and experience, these workers possess discernment, the ability to tell good code from bad, and (more importantly) good uses of code-generation tools from bad. They demonstrate the adage that worker-driven automation improves quality, while capital-driven automation improves throughput.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if LLMs had been given the chance to grow into being the same way the web did. Whereas we would be having this same conversation with the letters swapped if corporations were the ones to spawn the WWW instead of the way it came about.

The reason is the same. There is only one war.

[-] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It's not just "usage without discernment", it's that AI flattens some costs which are very obvious and very measurable (coding) in such a way that it introduces or amplifies other costs which are much more diffused and hard to measure (code and design reviewing, bug fixing, maintenance, adding new requirements), plus AI is totally incapable of doing the higher level tasks that shape what code needs to be done (technical analysis, requirements analysis and in bigger companies technical architecture).

People who are non-experts, aren't really senior domain experts or have some kinds of unbalanced expertise (they've never really progressed beyond being a coder, or they don't have full life-cycle experience with big projects or they're in an industry or position where they just make the code, shove it out the door and it's not their problem anymore) just look at the one thing they in their ignorance think is THE cost in programming - coding - and go "hey, this AI thing is amazing" even while AI is creating all sorts of much more time consuming problems which they don't really understand formally (they think those things are just "bad luck", "there's nothing we can do about avoiding this" and "it's just the way things are in programming") that require the time of people with higher expertise levels (i.e. who are more costly) to solve and AI doesn't even help with the kind of stuff which if done wrongly or not at all can condemn a software project to fail before it even starts like just half-way decent Technical and Requirements Analysis.

That's why you get some programmers going "this AI shit is amazing" whilst the really senior software development types are just nodding their heads and thinking "these people are ignorant as fuck juniors".

[-] the_wonderfool@piefed.social 2 points 2 months ago

I'm sorry but to me your comment is a bit misguided. You raise extremely valid point and are completely right in what you say, and yet all your argument fails to prove that software development hasn't changed.

The difficult part was understanding requirements and problem solving: absolutely true. Yet most of the time of a developer was spent in writing code. Now it's spent refining the analysis so that the LLM stops producing slop. And many programmers are doing it, even with all its downsides, because for them the fun part is understanding the requirements and problem solving, not writing code nor delivering fast. They are delegating those tasks to a machine, even with all the risks and issues.

Your second point (and the anecdote) further proves how programming changed. Before it was unthinkable that some random person, likely with no clue about what they are doing, would refactor an entire codebase in a night.

Both are massive changes. For the best? Arguably not, but I seriously doubt there will be any going back now.

[-] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yet most of the time of a developer was spent in writing code.

That's what developers told the world. Now they're exposed, it never really took that long to write the code. (Only partly joking.)

Actually, a whole lot of time went into reading other developers' code, getting documentation in sync with the actual implementation. And if you didn't do all that, you tended to have a lot more bugs / vulnerabilities, etc. The LLMs are wicked fast at reviewing code, they don't find ALL the problems, a lot of problems they do find aren't worth fixing, but they do find more actual actionable problems per minute than most developers can find per hour in a big code base.

[-] The_Decryptor@aussie.zone 0 points 2 months ago

The LLMs are wicked fast at reviewing code

That's because it's not actually reviewing the code, rather just producing text that statistically looks like review comments.

So it does look vaguely useful, e.g. if code has null checks, review comments usually won't ask for them to be added, but it's never actually reviewing, or understanding, or reasoning, or anything else people claim.

It's like an actor playing a doctor in a TV show, they're not actually diagnosing patients, they're just following a script that looks like it.

[-] MangoCats@feddit.it 0 points 2 months ago

Doctors "humanity" kills a lot of people, every day, that wouldn't have died if they did a statistical matching of their symptoms to the available research literature.

[-] GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Dumb people use their tools incorrectly. That’s all you’re describing.

[-] tyler@programming.dev 1 points 2 months ago

I gave one example. In fact that’s one of the least bad examples. If that was the only problem with LLMs it wouldn’t really be that bad. But the actual reality is so much worse. But I was arguing to the point that the person I replied to made, which was about development. The problems I have with AI are not fixable without literally every government on earth taking a stand, which just will not happen.

[-] GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

Using LLMs for development is fantastic as long as you know how to use it, which is how it is for every tool.

The difference with LLMs and other tools is that anyone can use them easily and get incredible results…..as long as you don’t look under the covers. The developers that use them well are getting results and code that are indistinguishable from code they’d write themselves.

[-] Magister@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

I'm not a kid doing some vibe coding, of course I know what I want and basically know how to implement it, the AI is just helping me writing it, auto-complete and all.

[-] tyler@programming.dev 1 points 2 months ago

The overwhelming majority of software development occurs on a team. You understanding what you’ve asked an AI to do doesn’t mean jack when you need to make sure an entire team can understand it five years from now. And LLMs tend to write code that is incomprehensible to another person the next day.

[-] Magister@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

? developer can write 50 lines per day, LLM help us for some auto-complete or some easy 5 lines routine/functions, but we are not blind and do not accept them blindly without understanding them. And we have pull request and reviews etc and prior to this we have architecture and class diagram and SDD and acceptance criteria and all kinds of things.

You do think that in big companies a developer will use LLM to generate thousands of line per day by himself?

[-] tyler@programming.dev 1 points 2 months ago

… we had autocomplete that worked better before LLMs came along. If you’re not using an LLM to generate more code then what the fuck is the point.

[-] MangoCats@feddit.it -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It was understanding requirements and problem solving. LLMs still can not do either of those things and there is no evidence they ever will be able to.

I don't know... I just made a scheduling / timesheet creation app. Multi-user, overlapping clients and providers, multiple funding sources. Took 10 calendar days to make the initial app working part time, maybe 2-3 hours a day. Initially written in Python, decided at that point I'd rather have it in Go. Because the initial app had robust requirements and design docs, the translation to Go happened in less than 5 calendar days, with almost zero human involvement beyond telling the agent "continue" at each stopping point. After the Go translation was done (and debugged by the LLM to a flawless translation - only difference is that it runs faster), I was given a new timesheet to use for some of the workers, weekly instead of bi-weekly. Pay weeks start on Monday instead of Thursday. Various wrinkles about how the employees and clients and services are identified, weird sub-totals by service. All I told the LLM was: "Here's a new timesheet that we'll be using for some workers, design the necessary modifications and extensions to accomodate it." It did, independently. It highlighted three shortcuts it took and I told it not to take those shortcuts, it adjusted.

That's not quite rocket science, but it's still impressive: to dissect the given .pdf, determine what data goes in what fields, in what formats, with what calculations, based on just reading the page, then adapt the existing app to fill it out automatically.

[-] Kangae_Hishiryo@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 2 months ago

I truly don't want to try your app... I don't want all my data leaked or my PC, laptop or phone bricked just because a dumb AI-slop code error.

[-] MangoCats@feddit.it 1 points 2 months ago

It's not for you, anyway.

In my professional work, I have watched AI code reviews catch 10x more dumb slop human errors than human reviews used to the same time a year earlier, consistently for about 8 months now.

[-] jwiggler@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 2 months ago

Tech in general. I'm a sysadmin in research computing. You know how many clients at prestigious universities are using AI for mathematics, biology, etc? All of them

[-] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 1 points 2 months ago

ive heard alot of posts subs about it, they are basically just graduating learning to use AI to bs through the whole degree and wonder why they arnt getting jobs, or they arnt learning anything, plus writing peer-reviewed papers?

[-] jwiggler@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'm not even talking about undergrads. I'm talking grad, post docs, and even the old professors. I'm talking prize winning mathematicians.

[-] GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

Yep I’ve got nearly 30 years of professional dev experience and Claude code/copilot/etc are absolutely groundbreaking.

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago

I like it for making a quick crappy version of something, so then they'll tell me the double secret requirements, and then I write the real version.

this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2026
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