813
checkmate!
(lemmy.nz)
https://sfba.social/@drahardja/117344931893000589
the other day a tanky said a sentence constructed like that to me too, while literally arguing for me to join his authoritarian group
it's one thing to do something ineffective, but be optimistic. it's another to waste others time and morally grandstand if they won't do ineffective things with you
Problem is in this case it's effective
it's not
Would be even worse if we all ate animals:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/20/vegan-diet-cuts-environmental-damage-climate-heating-emissions-study
I'm sorry you ran into assholes.
Edit: yeah you can tag this one as an antivegan debate pervert and move on.
I went with "anti-vegan troll moron"
I'm not antivegan
I think you're anti-brain.
lca studies are disparately methodized, and cannot be combined. this is junk science
this is a counterfactual and cannot be proven
I.e. eating less meat does not affect animal welfare, zoonosis and land use change?
nope
Are you an imbecile or a troll?
Troll, it appears. But. Maybe both.
calling me names won't change the facts
Yeah. We can call you names, and it won't change the fact that eating less meat does affect animal welfare, zoonosis and land use change.
Or do you have some actual argument to make?
meat production continues to rise, and there is no reason to believe it could rise any faster. systemic change needs to happen.
"There is no reason to believe it could rise any faster" is a belief that doesn't really feel founded on anything. And you seem to build a lot atop that belief.
If people were eating more meat, more meat would be produced.
that is already happening
You're doing literally precisely what this post is criticizing.
Yes. And that needs to happen less. That's the problem we are talking about.
The growth of total meat production is not indicative of the change in harm done by developed countries. It can only be combated by increasing poverty, decreasing population or imposing laws onto developing countries. Most people would be unwilling to impose that.
Quoting rising meat consumption as an example of how vegans are wrong is... Non factual. Naming those that do consume animal (products) in smaller amounts just as bad as those habitual carcass consumption clowns isn't conducive to the goal of reducing meat consumption either.
vegans aren't wrong to be vegan. but it would be wrong to say being vegan causes systemic change. which I thought was the point I made to begin with, and to an extent, the point of this post
I dunno, I've seen society go from "vegans might get some fries but will likely go hungry from a restaurant" to "every restaurant except one has at least one vegan option permanently on menu". During this time stores and restaurants have stopped supplying eggs from cages birds, and fur farms has shut down across the country, and schools has started serving meat-free Mondays, multiple types of meat alteratives can be found in every corner store rather than specialist shops, the EU has banned animal testing for cosmetics, pet abandonment has become criminalised, etc...
None of those things would have happened if people weren't going vegan, asking for vegan options at restaurants and stores, and pushing for vegan ideals at stores, restaurants, local councils and government.
The meat and dairy lobby is massive, intense and wealthy. I understand that it may seem impossible to work against such an opponent. But the force enacted by each individual going vegan is what has made these changes seem worth it to all the above institutions, in the face of such massive industries, and that makes each individuals force incredible.
Systemic changes are slow, but when you see them across decades they are undeniable.
Nothing you do as an individual for yourself causes systemic change. Being social and causing your peers to change their behavior is effective. But in the end there are hundreds of people in the world and you are just one of them.
Persistent, effective influencing is what does the most. You could also do a little terrorism, I guess. But that causes further divide and harm.
The point of this post was that comments like yours itt want to discourage positive change by naysaying, and that it's shitty and wrong. Not really sure how you twisted that into "vegans aren't doing anything".
Where "the facts" is just a baseless claim that since things look bad, they couldn't be worse, therefore vegans have never made any impact whatsoever. 🤮
counterfactuals can't be proven. that's the only fact that matters when the actually baseless claim that it would be worse without a few people buying beans is raised.
If it was only a few people you wouldn't be getting so annoyed about them existing.
The real reason everyone hates vegans is that, deep down, we all know they're right.
I don't hate vegans and I'm not annoyed at them existing. you are reading something I haven't written
I don't believe you.
I'm the authority on my own feelings.
And anyone who believes you is unfortunate.
I don't know if you just found out about a new word or what but that means specifically "untruth" which isn't something you've proven at all. You pretend that a graph showing meat production increasing proves that vegans haven't changed anything and that's about as far from proof as one can get. My term for that claim is "bullshit".
You came to this post highlighting people being shitty about social movements and you saw it as a great opportunity to be shitty about a specific social movement.
if you had to look up counterfactuals, you probably aren't qualified to discuss this right now.
Ah I see, if I check my understanding of a word to confirm if I'm right, I shouldn't talk to you. Yeah that does check out actually lol. You didn't address the fact that you are overusing the word (and incorrectly) and have zero evidence for anything you're claiming at all. Stay ignorant, troll.
this should help you understand the concept
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/counterfactuals/
You claimed that rising meat production proves a random idea you had. So I don't think you actually read/understand that paper yourself. Not to mention literally zero people see value in whatever biased ass point you think you're making
no, it shows that being vegan hasn't decreased meat production
Yes that is the random idea I'm talking about, professor. It absolutely doesn't show anything like that. It does, however, make everyone think you're an idiot.
meat production hasn't decreased. therefore nothing can be said to have decreased it.
Even your pea brain could understand that there is literally zero way you could know what it would've been if not for vegans. "I thought something" is not a scientific experiment. You came here to shit on an idea and it's pretty obvious that is all you intend to focus on. You have made no point, added nothing, and said nothing correct. Delete your account.
which is what i've been saying.
No it fucking isn't you trolling dipshit. Delete your account
anyone can read the thread and see it's exactly what i've been saying. calling me names and using coded kys rhetoric won't change what i've written, or its truth.
You have been consistently downvoted precisely because you've literally said nothing except "this graph didn't go down so that proves no difference was made". That is all. It is "counterfactual" or as a non-troll says, incorrect. It is not a conclusion you can draw. But you've drawn it repeatedly.
And this bizarre accusation that I told you to kill yourself is also made up bullshit. Delete your account has a clear meaning and is a valid thing to say to a troll with nothing of value to add. As is blocking them which I will now be doing. Enjoy your sad little trolling campaign but I won't be involved any further.
calling me names, speculating on the reasons for others votes, and mischaracterizing my position all indicate you're not engaging in good faith. have a nice day.