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Ukraine managed to gain ground in Ukraine as Russia faced off against Russia in Russia
(www.businessinsider.com)
this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
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Imagine Russia not having it's shit together enough to put down a mutiny from a mercenary group.
We know Russia's military is a disorganized mess. Even a well-organized military can struggle with getting up to date information from the front lines. A military in an authoritarian country where people are afraid of giving their leader bad news?
Yeah, Putin doesn't know what's going on in Ukraine. Best to keep him thinking that The glorious Russian Army has destroyed 4000 Leopard 2 tanks today and the Ukrainian counter offensive has been a complete failure, just as his staff is telling him.
You must inhabit an alternate universe where Russia didn't put down the mutiny of a mercenary group under 24 hours without bloodshed. Meanwhile, Russia's military is such a disorganized west that Ukraine ran into a wall trying to do their offensive after being pump full of the best weapons the west has to offer. One has to be utterly delusional to think that an offensive that failed to reach the first line of defence after 4 weeks is anything but a complete failure. Here's how things were expected to go by the way https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/18/ukraine-russia-war-counteroffensive-attack-bakhmut-himars/
Yeah they "put down" Wagner by giving in to the demands of Prigozhin. That's what happened in the universe I inhabit.
Putin was humiliated and proven to be weak.
Sorry that the great Red Army reborn turned out to be more like the army of Czar Nicholas II in 1917.
What demands of Prigozhin did they give in to, be specific. Last I checked his demands were that Shoigu and Gerasimov have to be replaced. Last I checked they're still in the same positions they were in, but maybe you know something I don't? Or more likely you have no clue regarding the topic you're attempting to debate.
Generally when there's a coup, those complicit either go to prison or are executed.
After this "failed coup", Prigozhin can go back to Africa with the men loyal to him. He avoids having to be in the front lines during the Ukrainian counter offensive and does so while appearing strong. I suspect Prigozhin has a better sense of how the Ukrainian counter offensive will go than you do. He avoids a possible collapse of the Russian Federation. When things go badly for Russia, he can say he warned everyone, and did what he could to prevent it. When the Putin regime collapses he will be well regarded in Russia.
And that's just the parts of the deal that are publicly known.
Meanwhile what did Putin get? One day he addressed the nation and declared Prigozhin a criminal and terrorist. Then the next day Prigozhin marches on Moscow. Then suddenly all is forgiven, Prigozhin and Wagner are not criminals and terrorists. Kinda a bad look isn't it? Just letting criminals and terrorists off the hook like that?
Seems the only thing Putin got was he didn't get removed from power. And even that's not certain... has Putin been seen publicly since his address where he declared Prigozhin a back-stabbing criminal? I guess we'll have to wait and see...
That's a lot of words to say that none of the demands were met. What Putin got was to avoid bloodshed, keep wagner and subordinate it to MoD by forcing it into official contracts with the MoD. Cleaned house by ferreting out any elements in the government or military that were supportive of a coup. I suspect that you are huffing copium at a faster rate than Ukraine is losing leopards in their offensive. 😂
Yeah, sure Putin intentionally wanted to be humiliated by Prigozhin because there's a 5000-D chess strategy that only you can understand.
Russia is a sinking ship. Prigozhin is a rat jumping off it before it goes down. He's been to the front lines, he knows what's coming better than you do.
But sure, Russian state news says that the glorious Red Army destroyed 4000 Leopard Tanks today. Just keep believing the TV while you see the people that have actually been to the front lines getting the fuck out of there any way they can.
whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose
@yogthos @SpaceCowboy Pffft... they didn't "put down" a mutiny. The Dictator of Belarus did. Putin is a weak ass coward and won't be in power much longer.
Oh hey, remind me how Lukashenko survived a coup again, oh that's right Russia got involved.
@yogthos Exactly, which pretty much tells you that neither can stand on their own feet. They have to prop each other up. Weak.
That's certainly an interpretation. Using this logic all of NATO is pretty weak since it takes all of NATO to provide the hodgepodge of support needed to prop up Ukraine in the war.
@yogthos Oh... the big bad NATO. Like NATO is the one trying to take over sovereign countries by force. NATO has never invaded another country without legitimate reasoning accepted by the world community. For example, Georgie, Estonia, and Ukraine have never been invaded by NATO but they have been by Russia on a whim. So, who is the real aggressor?
Somebody should let Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, and Afghanistan know that NATO doesn't invade sovereign countries. The sheer amount of ignorance required to make this statement is absolutely stunning.
@yogthos It's amazing that you completely misunderstood what I said. I said they don't do it without reasons that are accepted by the world community. And... after they're done, they leave. They don't annex the land... like Russia. They're not doing it for conquest as Russia does.
I don't remember UN resolutions authorizing any of these wars. What is this world community you speak of exactly? And no, they don't leave, US is currently occupying a chunk of Syria. US has annexed a part of Cuba where it runs a torture camp. You are either a liar or an ignoramus, either way you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
@yogthos 😂 Did you see any UN vote approving the invasion of Ukraine? Also, they have not annexed any part of Syria. They are occupying it. That's different. They will eventually leave just like they did Iraq and Afghanistan. As for Cuba, they do have Guantanamo but they also still recognize Cuba as the rightful owner of the land. They didn't have the US version of a Russian Duma annex it. That's the part you keep glossing over. Russia ANNEXED part of Ukraine.
Unlike you trying to justify the atrocities NATO commits, I'm not justifying the invasion of Ukraine. I'm just pointing out that Russia isn't doing anything that doesn't follow the precedent that the US led "rules based" world order has set up. In fact, the invasion of Ukraine is directly modelled on the invasion of Yugoslavia by NATO where NATO recognized the independence of the breakaway regions and then had them invite NATO for support. US hasn't left Iraq, and they were forced out of Afghanistan by the people of Afghanistan. They didn't choose to leave.
Olympic levels of mental gymnastics here. You keep on digging there buddy.
@yogthos it doesn’t take mental gymnastics to know that NATO and the United States doesn’t annex other countries in whole or in part. They cooperate with the international community to prevent genocide and mass murder. Unlike Russia, who annexed part of Ukraine and committed mass murder among other #warcrimes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=the%20UN%20Human%20Rights%20Monitoring,some%20of%20them%20summarily%20executed.
Over 6 million people have been massacred in the war of terror. That's what mass murder actually looks like https://bylinetimes.com/2021/09/15/up-to-six-million-people-the-unrecorded-fatalities-of-the-war-on-terror/
@yogthos not to mention, NATO attacked Yugoslavia to stop genocide. Are you advocating genocide? You seem to take issue with the prevention of it.
Exactly the same excuse Russia used to intervene in Ukraine.
@yogthos oh, it was the same excuse. The difference was there was no genocide in Ukraine like there was in Yugoslavia.
wrong as usual
Meanwhile, plenty of evidence of ethnic cleansing happening in Ukraine after western backed coup in 2014
@yogthos I didn’t say anything about Slobodan Milosevic. I said Yugoslavia was bombed to stop genocide. Milosevic was exonerated because they could find no link between him and the genocide. But the genocide was still taking place under his watch and that’s why Yugoslavia was bombed. In that regard, he’s irrelevant. Yugoslavia was bombed to stop the genocide and it worked. In Ukraine, Russia is the one doing the murdering and war crimes.
There's a lot more concrete evidence for the genocide in Donbas that Ukraine was conducting since 2014, but you keep on going.
@yogthos also, there have been no credible reports that Ukrainians were doing any kind of ethnic cleansing or genocide prior to Russian invasions. There have been made-up reports by Kremlin backed groups, claiming Ukrainian genocide. All of which, crumble under any inspection, or attempt to validate its legitimacy.
Literally linked those credible reports in an earlier reply, but keep on going there.
@yogthos dude, literally, the first link you shared was a known communist propaganda outlet that is sponsored by the governments of Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, and Nicaragua. You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t put much stock in the propaganda links you provided.
Oh, I'm sorry I shared something that's outside of your prescribed genocidal empire propaganda diet.
@yogthos lol inside or outside doesn’t matter. Facts matter. And this is a routinely misleading outlet. It’s no wonder you’re clueless about international affairs. 😂🤷♂️
You've amply demonstrated in this very thread that you don't care one bit about facts. Next, you're gonna tell me that research gate is a propagnada outlet. You're a liar and a clown, and everybody reading this thread can see that. Bye.
@yogthos lol researchgate is a repository that houses papers and articles from across the globe. Anyone can post a research paper there. Just because you cherry-picked one full of misinformation doesn’t mean it’s a reliable resource. You’ve already demonstrated a penchant to use communist propaganda. Why would I ever think that any of the other new sources you use would be reliable? 😂 get real. 😆
🤡
@yogthos Ant that's how I know I'm right. You don't have anything left but insults. 😂
Literally showed how every single of your claims is wrong with sources, but you do you buddy.
@yogthos Sure you did. Using propaganda outlets as proof always proves people wrong. And the New World Order is real. And the moon landing was faked. And the Freemasons run the world economy. What else would you like to add to your conspiracy theories list? 😂
Lots of links I provided are mainstream western outlets, but you keep on lying since that's all you've got.
@yogthos Give me one credible source that says there was no genocide going on in Yugoslavia when they were bombed by NATO. Go on, I'll wait. 😂 Just to be clear, I didn't ask for one that says Milosevic was absolved. I said one saying there was no genocide occurring when NATO bombed them.
I mean even wikipedia admits this, I love how you keep pretending that your lies are hard to prove
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
@yogthos Oh yes. Wikipedia. The bastion of truth and accurate information. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/wikipedia-founder-larry-sanger-democrats-b1885138.html
@yogthos The best you've got is Wikipedia, eh? LOL And, clearly you didn't read it. It provides zero verbiage that indicates genocide was not happening in Yugoslavia. And don't get me wrong. I'm never a proponent of war or bombing, but acting like this event is somehow precedent for what Russia is doing in Ukraine is ridiculous. The US and NATO are not perfect. But they've always worked to prevent genocide, unlike Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War
NATO has never worked to prevent genocide, and NATO is responsible for massacring people on an incredible scale with over 6 million people killed in war on terror alone. NATO invaded Yugoslavia unilaterally without an UN authorization. These are just plain facts, and you are a deeply dishonest individual who got caught lying repeatedly. I've got nothing else to say to you.
@yogthos Did NATO and the US cause this too? Pretty sure I can find an internet source that "proves" they did. 😂
@yogthos There you go again acting like military action without UN authorization is a bad thing when Russia could give two fucks about what the international community thought when they decided to invade Ukraine without UN authorization and then commit a bunch of war crimes. But you go on acting like you have the morally superior hand in this debate. 😂 Russian troll.