this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2023
1182 points (89.1% liked)
Leftism
2115 readers
1 users here now
Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!
Rules:
- Absolutely no fascism, right wing extremism, genocide denial, etc.
- Unconditional support of authoritarians will not be tolerated
- Good faith discussion about ideologies is encouraged, but no sectarianism
- No brocialism/sexism
- No ableism
- No TERFs/ anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric
- No racism
- No trolling
- No insults, dunking, or personal attacks
- No posting of misinformation, disinformation, or fake news
- Mods have final say
Posting Expectations:
- Comics/memes/shitposts/propaganda are only allowed on weekends
- Try to avoid liberalism unless discussing electoral politics. Even then, try to focus on tactical agreement towards leftist goals
- Only one meta post seeking consensus per person per day
- Posts about a particular ideology are ok, but remember the rules above
- Remember that there is no “right way” to implement leftist theory. This rule does not prevent academic criticism.
- Try to avoid extremely sensitive topics unless approaching them with appropriate care for intersectionality. Use your best judgement, and be prepared to provide respectable sources when having these discussions. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source in these cases.
- Post titles must be meaningful and relevant, except on weekends
Sister Communities:
!abolition@slrpnk.net !antiwork@lemmy.world !antitrumpalliance@lemmy.world !breadtube@lemmy.world !climate@slrpnk.net !fuckcars@lemmy.world !iwwunion@lemmy.ml !leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com !leftymusic@lemmy.world !privacy@lemmy.world !socialistra@midwest.social !solarpunk@slrpnk.net Solarpunk memes !therightcantmeme@midwest.social !thepoliceproblem@lemmy.world !vuvuzelaiphone@lemmy.world !workingclasscalendar@lemmy.world !workreform@lemmy.world
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I’ll keep my surgeons having gone to med school tyvm
They literally used to apprentice them. They still could. They don't but they could.
Do you want a 19th century surgeon?
If I were in the 19th century? Sure. We could still train them that way today even with all the knowledge we now have. It's only the knowledge that's outmoded. Not the method of training.
The method of training has severe deficiencies including the absence of standardization. Also surgeons still have apprenticeship they just have to go to med school first
The current method of training has severe deficiencies as well. Often saddling people with 6 to 7 figures of debt. And in the medical field specifically having them work shifts defined by people originally hopped up on meth and cocaine. I'd take a well rested and healthy surgeon any day over one that's sleep/stress/drug addled.
Oh and there were literal trade groups that set basic standards most times. Listen it's your prerogative if you want to argue training isn't training. It isn't a very defensible position however.
I don’t disagree that education should be free or at least affordable and at a reasonable pace, but I also stand by the position that an academic portion and institutional training are better than a training program without it.
But also you’ve moved from no such thing as skilled labor to adamantly defending apprenticeship which is a form of skilled labor training. Nobody who apprenticed is unskilled labor.
What data do you have to prove that? I get that you believe it. That doesn't make something true. Institutional educations can still vary considerably. As could apprenticeships. Standardization and accreditation are things external to both of them.
No I haven't. I simply pointed out that many people lack the skills for so called unskilled labor. And how it's largely derisive negative bullshit used to minimize and "other" people. Labor is labor. Every person should be able to support themselves via their labor in our society. If you work hard and specialize in a field. Your reward/payment is people's gratitude, respect, and defference as a subject matter expert. Don't get me wrong. As I said, surgeons, engineers etc etc etc deserve respect as anyone does for their work. But who do you think would be missed more if they suddenly disappeared one day. All the highly specialized educated people or all the unskilled labor? Think about it carefully in the context of all of human history. I'm not saying that so-called highly skilled labor doesn't help make society better. All labor does.
Mate everyone here agrees with you on that even entry level jobs should pay enough to pay rent, but that's not any kind of argument for your claim.
Unskilled/entry level (whatever you wanna call it) is just simply that, minimal requirements to get started. And (almost) all labor is valuable, no one is arguing against that.
Go have a sip of tea, read through your own messages and try understand where you went wrong.
Have a good ${TIME_OF_THE_DAY}
At what fucking point did I say or imply that they shouldn’t be compensated with a living wage? I’ve done unskilled labor, I’ve done high skilled labor. I think everyone even those unable to labor should be able to sleep indoors, have reasonable financial security, and all the other basic shit. I just also think that some labor should require a formal education because my current labor is strongly assisted by my formal education.
Your arguments have been all over the place and you’re arguing against people who aren’t taking the positions you insist we are. I’m a fucking communist. I don’t think engineers and physicians need to seize the means of production, but all of labor and yeah that includes retail workers.
And yeah many people do lack the skills to do a lot of unskilled labor, but it’s the difference between a week of training and a few years of training. And that’s fine, some really important things are difficult for reasons other than knowing out how to do them.