this post was submitted on 26 Dec 2023
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Privacy
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Privacy is the ability for an individual or group to seclude themselves or information about themselves, and thereby express themselves selectively.
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That's a circular argument.
"It's impossible to avoid this these companies because a lot of sites use them."
Ok. Why?
"Because they provide fundamental services."
Ok, what's so fundamental about them?
"A lot of sites use them."
...ok? WHY?
The service they provide to websites is "better user experience" by acting as a cdn close to the user they get better download speeds and responsiveness. It also is a benefit for the business because they don't have to worry nearly as much about deploying and maintaining multiple servers around the world.
That is why it's impossible to avoid these companies, every sane website engineer is going to want the services they offer.
And it's a service that is easiest to offer when you are an already established large cdn.
Sure, so they're fundamental to businesses. Not to the internet.
User experience isn't just for businesses.
User experience?
Wait, I thought we were talking about more than just user experience.
Sure 100% you can build a website without them.
But anyone expecting to serve millions of users is going to use and need them or the user experience will suffer
That's my point. So it's not fundamental. Just fundamental for big sites.
And not anyone. Cloudfare and AWS are not the only cloud/CDN services in the world.
But I understand now.
The pattern is that big businesses can afford their own infosec experts and have no use for CF (who poses a disclosure risk to their business). It’s the small mom & pop shops that cling to CF. They hire someone cheap who doesn’t have a high infosec proficiency, who just takes the cheap lazy path of deploying the site on CF. They usually don’t even bother to tweak CF’s extra privacy-hostile default settings.
Interesting. That makes sense in many reasonable contexts.
You say “fundamental” when I think (from context) you mean to say “essential”. But to be clear, Cloudflare is not essential to business or the internet. Consider banking in the US. Big banks are competent enough to not need CF. But credit unions are small and on shoestring budgets. So CUs are increasingly exposing all their customers to Cloudflare to save money. If you are a client of a CU that starts using Cloudflare, I suggest switching to paper statements and quit using the website. Switch to a CU that does not expose you to Cloudflare. So far that’s not difficult but that could change.
Thanks! Good tip.
Not sure why people are being so weird about answering your questions, but e.g. CloudFlare does DDoS protection which now basically everything you put on the internet needs some type of , and is far too complicated to do yourself, when you need it.
Thus CloudFlare (or AWS's equivalent) is pretty essential. I'm sure there are other reasons too.
Thanks. Though I knew all that, I appreciate your response.
I guess DDoS protection is essential, but the fundamental part is dependant on the seevice provider's goal. If I just want to host a game over the internet for my friends, Cloudflare is not really fundamental for that. For businesses, though, yeah.
Admins tend to have an exaggerated degree of self-importance. They think their own service is somehow so important that downtime is just not an option, even at the cost of pawning all their own users/supporters traffic to a tech giant in a country without privacy safeguards. And they do that even when offering a non-profit service like a fedi instance. It’s a total disregard for privacy even when no money is on the line. Part of the problem is not only are they not hiring experts but they can’t be bothered to develop the competency themselves. They don’t factor in or realize the fact that web security is part of the task they are signing up for. Like someone saying they want to sell fries but they don’t want to be bothered with finding a potato supplier. If they want to reject a fundamental component of the activity, perhaps that activity is not for them.
Sorry, I was assuming that people knew what they did or would look it up themselves. The short and non-technical answer is "the cloud" actually means "other people's computers" and these companies are the "other people". The why of it is complicated, there are both technical and economic reasons. I think it probably comes down to efficiency and economies of scale.
Care to elaborate?
So far it seems like it pertains to big sites. So if these cloudfare et al are "impossible to avoid" for any other scanario, I'll be happy to be schooled.
A quick web search suggests that AWS (Amazon Web Services, I think) hosts 32% of websites. I don't have more nuance to provide other than to agree that these companies provide architecture to a huge portion of the modern internet. Most of everything is held by a small number of companies, just like wealth is concentrated in a small percentage of the population with huge companies owning most of the market.