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this post was submitted on 01 Apr 2024
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Friendly reminder that Scotland's freedom of speech laws are different from those in the US.
The freedom of one person ends where it starts limiting the freedom of another person
Unlimited freedom of speech just means that it's possible to verbally deny a group of people a place in society either by lying about them or by just ignoring their existence - and both are limiting that person's freedom - not just their freedom of speech.
I really don't understand how Americans don't seem to understand that one person's freedom should end when it limits the freedom of another person - and if it doesn't then it's just the stronger/more forceful one pushing the weaker/more defensive one into a corner.
I'm in Canada. The number of people who think we have free speech laws similar to our neighbours (and what they think they can get away with) is staggering.
It's a "freedom to" vs "freedom from" issue. The US is much more on the "freedom to" side. For example, freedom to own firearms overrules freedom from gun violence. In this case, it's freedom to say nasty shit overrules freedom from hearing nasty shit. This is also why libertarianism is so popular here (they're all about having the "freedom to," even when it's at others' expense). This isn't always the case of course (our strict zoning laws and development codes are a great example of "freedom from" overruling "freedom to").
And the US laws should be more like Scotland's. Hate speech is implicitly violent and should be treated as such.
The will never come to US because it would become a modern day witch hunt used for political purposes of whoever is in power at that time.
There is only one definition of hate speech.
Sure
https://www.ala.org/advocacy/intfreedom/hate
If librarians can figure this out, why can't you?
You have me convinced. Lock up anyone that voices criticisms of left leaning ideology.
Do you see anything about political ideology in that definition?
And when the right gets elected we can consider any criticism of Christianity as hate speech and lock them up too. People never abuse their power.
Weird how that hasn't happened in any other country that has hate speech laws.
Is America special? Americans somehow need extra special freedom of speech?
Because they are rarely enforced. Do you really think that if Trump was elected again he wouldn’t try to abuse a law like this? Either way, we have different opinions here. I believe that if someone wants to criticize an idea they should be allowed to, you believe that if that opinion is offensive that it could be considered hateful and should be illegal, do I have that right?
I thought you just said comedians were getting locked up because of those laws. Now you're saying they're rarely enforced. Which is it?
Either way, we have different opinions here. I believe that if someone wants to criticize an idea they should be allowed to, you believe that if that opinion is offensive that it could be considered hateful and should be illegal, do I have that right?
Nope. You don't have that right. "Offensive" was not in the definition I gave you either. You keep adding to or modifying the definition.
Once again-
That says nothing about offensiveness or about political ideology and there are zero examples of a country twisting that law into some major form of oppression. Not one. Your hypothetical doesn't change reality.
What did JK Rowling specifically say that was hate speech and not a criticism?
Sorry, you think holocaust denial counts as "criticism?"
Would it also be "criticism" if you denied that the Nazis killed millions of Jews?
Do you not have any quotes? I personally don’t follow her or care to, so I have no idea what she said that would count as hate speech.
https://www.salon.com/2024/03/15/jk-rowling-trans-nazis-holocaust-denial/
I'm guessing you will excuse her as "just asking questions."
Again, do you have any quotes from her that count as hate speech? Not looking for editorialized or sensationalized headlines
If only that article quoted her in it more than once...
I don't really have to hold your hand and copy and paste the quotes from the article, do I? It's not a very long article.
You don’t have any quotes, do you?
I do. I gave you a link with direct quotes from her. Again, do I really need to copy and paste them here? Are you really unable to just read a short article that they're in? I mean, I'll paste them if you are actually that lazy. Are you really that lazy?
Give me her worst quote that counts as hate speech to you. At this point I think you’re proving my point here, you are classifying criticism as hate speech and using it to go after political opponents.
Got it. You're incredibly lazy. Here you go. I bolded the most relevant parts in case reading an entire paragraph plus a couple of other sentences is just too much effort:
Holocaust denial is not "criticism."
“The first victims of the holocaust”. Where did she say the holocaust did not happen?
They were, in fact, the first victims of the Holocaust. Which she denied. That's what's known as Holocaust denial.
https://www.gendergp.com/remembering-the-institute-for-sexual-research-and-lgbtq-victims-of-the-holocaust/
https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_Nazi_Germany#Ransacking_of_the_Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
Believe it or not, admitting that the Nazis killed Jews but saying they only killed one million instead of six? Also Holocaust denial, not criticism.
By the way, if you had not been ridiculously lazy and had read the article which put those quotes in context, you will see that she still denied it after many people educated her on the subject.
Do you deny it?
I do not deny the holocaust. I am of Jewish descent. Surely you can see that saying someone is the first victim is not even close to the same as saying some is not a victim. Are you purposely being obtuse?
Yes, and saying the Nazis only killed one million Jews is not the same as saying the Nazis didn't kill any Jews.
And yet both are Holocaust denial. You being of "Jewish descent" doesn't change that denying parts of the Holocaust happened is Holocaust denial. You can be a rabbi, but if you say no Roma people were killed in the Holocaust, you're a Holocaust denier. "I'm Jewish" is not a shield.
She was shown she was wrong and she doubled down on it. And now you're supporting her because you refuse to look at the context which is also a form of Holocaust denial.
That is not hate speech and I do not support JK Rowling. I do support freedom of speech. Like I predicted, this law would be used to silence political opponents. Like you are in support of here.
Holocaust denial is considered hate speech based on the parameters I gave you.
She is not being silenced. She posted multiple tweets about this issue.
That is not holocaust denial. She did not deny the holocaust happened or that they were not victims. You are being purposely obtuse.
Yet again, saying only one million Jews died in the Holocaust instead of six million is Holocaust denial.
Why do you not know this? Please educate yourself on Holocaust denial, especially since you claime to be "of Jewish descent," whatever that means. I'm just Jewish.
https://www.museumoftolerance.com/education/teacher-resources/holocaust-resources/what-is-holocaust-denial.html
You are comparing it to something that it is not. She is not saying that 1 million people died in the holocaust. Are you really denying that people can be of Jewish descent? Stop being a bigot
I didn't deny people can be anything, although I have no idea what "of Jewish descent" is supposed to mean. Does it mean you had many ancestors who died in the Holocaust or does it mean you had a Jewish great-grandmother from Schenectady, NY?
And I know what part of the Holocaust she's denying. The part that involves transgender people. You also appear to be denying it and hiding behind your "of Jewish descent" claim.
You’re now resorting to personal attacks. Is this all you do on this website? Do you have any friends in real life?
It's strange to complain about someone resorting to personal attacks and then making a personal attack in the same post.
I'd explain to you about why I'm here right now, but I doubt you'd read it since you wouldn't read a link I posted. And you'd just say it wasn't true if I did.
But feel free to look me up in Casual Conversations and see the hell I've been going through since January of 2023 if you like. Maybe it will make you laugh.
I wish you the best on your health issues. I knew someone who had very similar issues and after a few years it went away luckily.
I hope you can understand that some people are not left wing. That doesn’t make them bad people.
Do you wish me the best? Because you sure didn't one post ago.
What the fuck does this have to do with a single thing I have said in this entire conversation?
Keep begging your mom for more money instead of getting a job.
I knew you didn't actually wish me the best.
Why lie about it?
Just admit you couldn't give less of a fuck if I died right now.
Incidentally, I have never begged my mother for money in my life. I'm sorry if you don't have parents nice enough to offer to pay for things when you're having a very difficult time.
They are rarely enforced. What percent of the world is comedians?
So, again, you are claiming America is a special place and Americans need special freedoms other Western countries don't have.
Either way, we have different opinions here. I believe that if someone wants to criticize an idea they should be allowed to, you believe that if that opinion is offensive that it could be considered hateful and should be illegal, do I have that right?
Comedians have been jailed and fined for jokes in other countries. Don’t be obtuse.
Specifically which comedians in which countries and what did they say?