this post was submitted on 21 May 2024
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[–] magnetosphere@fedia.io 72 points 6 months ago (130 children)

I can understand being unwilling to vote for Biden because he’s supporting genocide. That, taken by itself, is perfectly reasonable.

Why aren’t those otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people looking at the bigger picture, though?

Don’t they understand that under Trump, things will be much worse? What’s their moral rationale for allowing fascism to take over America, and empowering untold numbers of reprehensible people? I’m trying to understand, but I just don’t get it.

[–] Takeshidude@lemmy.world 64 points 6 months ago (25 children)

They don't seem to understand that the Israel/Palestine situation is not on the ballot this November; does anyone actually think Trump would oppose Israel? Even if he personally wanted to, his supporters are all nominal Christians who would turn on him in an instant if he suddenly stopped supporting God's Chosen People.

[–] cammoblammo@lemmy.world 19 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Except for the anti-Semites, who make up a decent chunk of his active base. Or are they also pro-Israel?

Can anyone explain to me how the Nazis and pro-Israel crowds seem to be so friendly at the moment? It’s almost like this has nothing to do with Israel.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 38 points 6 months ago

Except for the anti-Semites, who make up a decent chunk of his active base. Or are they also pro-Israel?

Yes.

Antisemite support of Israel is very common, because antisemites:

  1. Have a lot of overlap with fundies, who believe that Israel MUST exist for the apocalypse to occur
  2. Enjoy the thought of an ethnostate where they can deport all the Jews to
  3. Hate Muslims more than Jews
[–] FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world 15 points 6 months ago

The Cristo-fascists are actively hoping for an Armageddon situation to bring about all their end of world predictions. The IDF may belong to a different abrahamic cult but they’re useful for fomenting that chaos in the region and lighting the lamp for jeebus or whatever the fuck they believe

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[–] hark@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

They understand perfectly and that's why they're making it on the ballot. So what's it going to be: continue supporting genocide and lose votes or stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Seems like an obvious choice, but maybe you're too smart and understand too much over the masses you look down upon.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 15 points 6 months ago

Unfortunately most of Biden's voting base hasn't paid attention to politics since 243BC so they still think Israel is the good guy

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[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

The even bigger picture is the trend of things getting progressivelly worse even when Democrats are at the helm.

For example, it was Clinton that reppealed the Glass-Steagal Act which in turn led to hyperfinancialization and the 2008 Crash and it was Obama who chose to then save Asset owners in general (i.e. the Wealthy), unconditionally and on the backs of everybody else, leading to the slowest recovery from a Crash ever and all the imballances of the US Economy at the moment which as manifesting themselves as a complete total collapse in Social Mobility and rise of Inequality and Poverty.

Clearly electing Democrats doesn't improve things either.

The problem is of course that the US is not a Democracy (hence how there are only 2 carefully selected real options, which in this election are so bad that they're both hard Genocide supporters) so merelly voting for a President won't solve anything, and the only solution probably involves levels of political activism Americans aren't used to (one might even say they've been conditioned against it) such as General Strikes.

[–] magnetosphere@fedia.io 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I can’t argue with anything you said. I can only argue that under Democrats, authoritarianism and the erosion of civil rights happen slower. We’ll have more time to acclimate ourselves to the concept of a General Strike. There’s no reason to give facism a helping hand by skipping the election.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

It's my impression that Historically the slow bloil tends to breed acceptance, not rebellion, and when it doesn't there is generally a long period (decades, even centuries) of misery after the slow decay before people finally force a change for the better.

I can see your point, I just don't agree with your expectation that the slow crumble will be a less painfull way overall to get people to do what it takes to recover than the crash-n-burn - yeah, it's less painful immediatelly, but the pain lasts longer and the depths reached are probably much worse since human perception of how bad a crisis is, is based on where they were before not on absolute terms, so a crash-n-burn (i.e. a crisis, unlike the slow crumble) needs not collapse things quite as badly as the slow crumble to induce a general feeling that "this is unnacceptable".

All that said, I'm fortunate I'm not an American or living in America and that the actions of both Trump and Biden (more the former) have made the US be seen as "not all that great" and "a bad example to follow" over here so the contagion factor for whatever happens over there is a lot less than it would have been a decade or two ago.

I can safelly wonder about all that at an intellectual level safe in a country that's not really going to hurt from the changes taking place in America.

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[–] PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 6 months ago (2 children)

It's always going to be this way. Every election will be an emergency. Every election in my lifetime has been. We're in an abusive relationship and we need to get out of it. We need to break the duopoly. We need sane polling methods. But, no. Just like they keep us divided they're keeping us distracted.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (6 children)

If you want to understand, I can explain fairly simply.

Consider this thought experiment. We are getting $100 to split, but only if they can agree on how to split it: I get to make an offer, then you choose whether to accept. If you announce that you'll accept whatever deal so long as accepting is better than the alternative - that is, that you'll act "rationally" - then the rational thing for me to do is to offer you only $1, while I get $99. Researchers have actually tested this game in real life, however, and it generally doesn't play out that way. Why? Because the numbers don't tell the whole story of what you're giving up by accepting a bad deal. Once you've demonstrated that you'll accept a deal like that, then you're communicating something about your behavior for all future deals. It may be rational in the context of a closed experiment, but for the general case, our minds know better than what may appear "rational" at first glance. If you tell me, "I will refuse anything less than $30," then you are openly declaring that you intend to behave "irrationally" and trying to convince me that you will - and it would most likely produce better results than behaving "rationally."

The moment that you say, "My only condition for voting for the democrats is that they be better than the republicans, who are unimaginably horrible," you have sacrificed every ounce of bargaining power that you could've wielded. So the real calculation is not "Who's better between Trump and Biden," but rather, is the difference between Trump and Biden worth sacrificing all my bargaining power?" And for me, the fact that Biden is supporting genocide makes that decision very easy and straightforward. I'd rather at least try to leverage what power I have against genocide altogether, rather than supporting the "lesser genocide." If I cannot set even something like genocide as a red line, then I am very clearly communicating to politicians that they can count on my vote no matter what they do, and they have no reason to ever consider my political priorities.

[–] magnetosphere@fedia.io 5 points 6 months ago

Thank you for taking the time to explain. That is by far the best answer I’ve seen.

[–] 0xD@infosec.pub 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

And yet your actions will lead to "more genocide" while you go and jerk off in the mirror with your newly gained bargaining power! Good job!

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[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

This is a false equivalence though: In the thought experiment, you denying to split ensures that none of you get anything. In this real-world scenario, you refusing to make a choice between more or less genocide increases the chances of "more genocide" winning. By not making a choice, you aren't punishing the person proposing the deal, you're just allowing someone else to make the choice for you.

There are elections in which it makes sense to vote against a candidate like Biden: In every election where there is a better choice on the table. That includes primaries, it includes backing candidates opposed to him in local elections, and elections for the house and senate. That is when you make your stand.

By not voting, in any specific election, you are simply giving up your right to have an impact on the outcome. That means that if the outcome is an increase in people killed, you are responsible, because you had the option to save lives, and chose not to take it.

By voting for the lesser of two evils, you are not signalling that you accept the lesser evil, but simply that you believe it is the best possible choice of those given. You can signal that you dislike the lesser evil by voting against it when an even lesser evil is on the table (or, preferably, something actually good).

Also, it's not like "the democrats" tactically choose a candidate that they think the voters will reluctantly accept. The candidate is specifically the person that got the most votes in the primaries. The candidates in the primaries are typically people who got enough votes to be either governor or senator or something previously. By consistently voting for the better candidate in all those elections, you can actually have an impact on the presidential nominee, and signal your beliefs to the political party, without running the risk of having a wannabe dictator become president.

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[–] daltotron@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

So, say you were in a swing state, right? Then it might make sense to vote for biden. Or, a state where your votes are tallied earlier in the process, since a larger victory earlier in the process has an effect on those votes later on. Or, a state where your votes are disproportionately of more weight, maybe so long as you also live in a swing state. Those are the contexts in which it might actually make sense to vote for biden, because those are the contexts more broadly in which voting actually matters.

But, say you don't conform to those criteria, say you live in a highly populous state, like, say, california, new york, maybe texas. These are states where they've already pre-committed themselves to one candidate over the other, and regardless of like, screeching about like, "oh well all votes count everything has an impact", nothing's realistically gonna change in those states unless some major cultural shifts and maybe even demographic shifts took place. You'd pretty much be an idiot to believe otherwise, right, to believe, oh, well, this time, this time california's gonna vote red. Especially with a candidate like trump. Maybe if somebody like bernie suddenly became a republican or something, that might cause a decent amount of upset, but without a larger shift taking place there basically beyond your control, not much is gonna happen. The race has already been called for you, and been called for those states ahead of time. Maybe egg will be on my face if california votes red this election, but somehow I just don't think that's gonna happen.

In those cases, in those particular contexts, where your vote matters doesn't really matter, it actually makes more sense, in my mind, to vote for the candidate you actually believe in. Even if that ends up being no candidate at all, which, admittedly, I do find pretty unlikely. Like, you have nothing to lose or gain really either way, so the best thing you can do in my mind is just clearly signal what your actual priorities are, and then hopefully someone looks at the poles and changes tactics because of it. To either appeal to your bloc more, or say, the DSA gets more funding because of increased voter turnout, or whatever.

I have never heard anyone really provide a legitimate counterargument to this set of tactics, because I don't think you really can. It's just an elaboration on strategic voting with more specifics than "vote blue no matter who" as sort of a blanket, contextually devoid statement that doesn't make sense for a bunch of different scenarios. And strategic voting is what people are already doing when they're trying to do a compromise vote for one of the two main parties in a FPTP two party system. That's already a form of strategic voting, I'm just elaborating on it, instead of making a generalized party line heuristic that doesn't make sense inm frankly, most cases, for most people that you're gonna be talking to.

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