this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
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[–] imkali@lemmy.dbzer0.com 71 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

Sounds like an avoidable problem, that Proton didn't have a whole lot to fight it with. Obviously they could/should have fought it in court, but this could have been avoided if the individual simply didn't link a recovery email and/or didn't share the same email across Apple products + protesting. Although, the article does point out that if you sign up over Tor or a VPN it requires a verification email, which sucks- ~~though you could just use a temporary email address to get around it.~~ As CaptObvious pointed out (literally @CaptObvious@literature.cafe lmfao) the reporter pointed out Proton rejects temporary emails.

Key information:

The core of the controversy stems from Proton Mail providing the Spanish police with the recovery email address associated with the Proton Mail account of an individual

individual is suspected of being a member of the Mossos d’Esquadra (Catalonia’s police force) and of using their internal knowledge to assist the Democratic Tsunami movement.

Upon receiving the recovery email from Proton Mail, Spanish authorities further requested Apple to provide additional details linked to that email, leading to the identification of the individual.

This case is particularly noteworthy because [...] complex interplay between technology firms, user privacy, and law enforcement.

requests were made under the guise of anti-terrorism laws

primary activities of the Democratic Tsunami involving protests and roadblocks

Proton Mail’s compliance with these requests is bound by Swiss law

Comment from Proton:

We are aware of the Spanish terrorism case involving alleged threats to the King of Spain, but as a general rule we do not comment on specific cases. Proton has minimal user information, as illustrated by the fact that in this case data obtained from Apple was used to identify the terrorism suspect. Proton provides privacy by default and not anonymity by default because anonymity requires certain user actions to ensure proper OpSec, such as not adding your Apple account as an optional recovery method. Note, Proton does not require adding a recovery address as this information can in theory be turned over under Swiss court order, as terrorism is against the law in Switzerland.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 36 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The reporter noted that disposable verification addresses are rejected by Proton.

[–] AlteredStateBlob@kbin.social 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

You can simply use either: a different protonmail address or a similar service like tutanota.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 12 points 6 months ago (1 children)

And how do you get either of those using a throwaway verification account?

[–] AlteredStateBlob@kbin.social 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I mean, suit yourself if you insist that you can or only want to do it with a throwaway. I'm saying you can do it with similar services like tutanota as the failover address, eliminating the need for a throwaway.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 5 points 6 months ago

My bad. I thought Tuta also required a verification email when I created an account several years ago. Just tried it, and they don't appear to these days. Good to know. Thanks.

[–] imkali@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Ah, my bad, I'll edit my comment.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 4 points 6 months ago

It feels a little like we're playing Whack-a-Mole with threading multiple email providers here. :)

The handle is a hobby nickname, by the way. My wife started calling me that as a trail name several years ago, and it stuck.

[–] OnePhoenix@lemmy.world 16 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I don't know if what I do is the right way around this but, as stated Proton will reject disposable verification emails and you cannot use another proton account to verify a new one.

My workaround for this is to verify proton with a Tutanota account which is also created with as little to no identifiable information as possible.

TLDR: Proton accepts Tuta emails for verification and Tuta emails can be created anonymously.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 11 points 6 months ago (6 children)

Which leads to the next logical question: Why not just use Tuta in the first place?

[–] OnePhoenix@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Valid point. I do prefer the UI with Proton, I find it nicer to click through. Also, Tuta usually makes you wait 2-3 days before you can use it - not a big deal really, unless you're trying to sign up for something new.

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[–] Beaver@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 months ago

Sounds pretty messed up.

[–] chalk46@kbin.social 58 points 6 months ago (3 children)

nothing I read about this group on Wikipedia points to terrorism, it repeatedly says they advocate nonviolence
I guess these days though it's become some kind of magic password to get whatever the hell you want

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 41 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It always has been in Spain. I adore the people and culture, but they’ve always overreacted to Basque and now Catalan independence movements.

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[–] helenslunch@feddit.nl 29 points 6 months ago

Terrorism is a label terrorists slap on freedom fighters.

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[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 19 points 6 months ago

The requests were made under the guise of anti-terrorism laws

Remember this the next time someone in government says "We need tough anti-terrorism laws". They also get to define what counts as terrorism, so anyone inconvenient can be destroyed and the public told "We're just keeping you safe from terrorism."

[–] Mikufan@ani.social 18 points 6 months ago (5 children)

Nothing they can do about that.

[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

They could avoid storing the recovery email in plaintext. A hash would be sufficient if they require the user to enter their recovery email for confirmation when they really need to recover the account.

For an ostensibly privacy-oriented service, Proton makes some weird architectural choices.

[–] Mikufan@ani.social 12 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I've had to use the recovery, they need plaintext because they send you a recovery code or a support ticket (depends) nobody knows all their emails.

[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 6 months ago (23 children)

they need plaintext because they send you a recovery code or a support ticket

Sure, but we're talking about architectural choices. It is Proton's choice to use that system; it is not required for the goal of account recovery.

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[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 16 points 6 months ago (9 children)

I do not understand why people continue to trust Proton. They seem no better than Gmail from where I sit.

[–] Jako301@feddit.de 67 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Proton upheld their claim of privacy, no Emails were disclosed. But they never promised anonymity cause that's something they simply can't do under the Swiss law. If you willingly give them your other mail addresses or contact details, they have to comply. Sure they could have denied the Spanish authorities, but it takes less than a week to get a court order for things like this.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 24 points 6 months ago (3 children)

And if they didn’t require that secondary email address or would allow a temporary, they would have had nothing to give in the first place.

Proton aren’t the victim here.

[–] Alk@lemmy.world 42 points 6 months ago (1 children)

They don't require a secondary email address.

[–] Baku@aussie.zone 4 points 6 months ago

They do in certain cases. If you sign up through a VPN or Tor, they require you to provide a recovery email. They don't accept temporary email addresses, and even if you don't sign up work a VPN, they'll still collect and be obligated to hand over your IP

[–] kingster@lemmy.world 36 points 6 months ago

Proton doesn't require a recovery email.

Proton isn't the victim, but they aren't at fault either.

[–] 4am@lemm.ee 20 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Oh yes because you HAVE to give them your real.name@gmail address. Very cool and privacy focused.

Suspect knew what info he had put where. Poor OPSEC.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Yes, as the reporter demonstrated, you have to give them a second email address. Or did I miss your point?

[–] Plopp@lemmy.world 29 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I think you missed their point. You don't have to give them anything related to or connected to your real name or identity.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 3 points 6 months ago

Fair point.

[–] helenslunch@feddit.nl 38 points 6 months ago

Then you are ignorant.

[–] Ilandar@aussie.zone 25 points 6 months ago

Comments like this are why no one takes privacy advocates seriously. Really? No better than Google? You guys are fucking delusional.

[–] requiem@lemmy.world 24 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Depends in what field. Proton, at least, doesn’t scan your email contents and metadata to sell it on to advertisers.

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[–] summerof69@lemm.ee 20 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I don't think that Proton sells my data to advertisers or trains AI using my emails and documents. As of laws, unfortunately any service in any reputable country has to obey them. You can always buy a server in some banana republic and set up an email service there, but even then there are some risks.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

All good unrelated points.

With Proton’s anti-privacy requirements for establishing service, they don’t deserve anyone’s trust. They’re just a LEO honeypot that charges you to get in. Again, in that regard, you may as well stick with free Google. At least they’re (mostly) honest about what they are.

[–] independantiste@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago

How is proton being dishonest here? I'd like to read your point. They never pitched themselves as a way to protect yourself from the law, they always clearly said they are a confidential email provider, meaning they don't know what you are sending and receiving. It works like a doctor meeting, the information is very confidential, but not anonymous, it is tied to you even though nobody except authorized parties should be able to access this info.

[–] Rogers@lemmy.ml 18 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Way way better than gmail IMO. One simple reason is if you have something wrong with your account you can get in contact with a real human. And still better data protection than anything in the US. I'm not a journalist or freedom fighter so for my use case it's ideal.

[–] CaptObvious@literature.cafe 3 points 6 months ago

Fair point. And if whatever you want to keep private isn't likely to get you killed, then Proton is probably as good as any.

[–] EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

Because we can see through the clickbait to what actually happened.

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