this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2024

34 points (61.8% liked)

Leftism

2115 readers

1 users here now

Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!

Rules:

Absolutely no fascism, right wing extremism, genocide denial, etc.
Unconditional support of authoritarians will not be tolerated
Good faith discussion about ideologies is encouraged, but no sectarianism
No brocialism/sexism
No ableism
No TERFs/ anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric
No racism
No trolling
No insults, dunking, or personal attacks
No posting of misinformation, disinformation, or fake news
Mods have final say

Posting Expectations:

Comics/memes/shitposts/propaganda are only allowed on weekends
Try to avoid liberalism unless discussing electoral politics. Even then, try to focus on tactical agreement towards leftist goals
Only one meta post seeking consensus per person per day
Posts about a particular ideology are ok, but remember the rules above
Remember that there is no “right way” to implement leftist theory. This rule does not prevent academic criticism.
Try to avoid extremely sensitive topics unless approaching them with appropriate care for intersectionality. Use your best judgement, and be prepared to provide respectable sources when having these discussions. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source in these cases.
Post titles must be meaningful and relevant, except on weekends

Sister Communities:

!abolition@slrpnk.net !antiwork@lemmy.world !antitrumpalliance@lemmy.world !breadtube@lemmy.world !climate@slrpnk.net !fuckcars@lemmy.world !iwwunion@lemmy.ml !leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com !leftymusic@lemmy.world !privacy@lemmy.world !socialistra@midwest.social !solarpunk@slrpnk.net Solarpunk memes !therightcantmeme@midwest.social !thepoliceproblem@lemmy.world !vuvuzelaiphone@lemmy.world !workingclasscalendar@lemmy.world !workreform@lemmy.world

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

Zstom6IP@lemmy.world

rockSlayer@lemmy.world

Have you trained today? (startrek.website)

submitted 2 months ago by nagaram@startrek.website to c/leftism@lemmy.world

47 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Hello comrades! Friendly reminder that American leftists continue to be threatened by gun loving conservatives. You should know how to defend yourself and you should probably own a gun. Find an active SRA, John Brown Gun Club, or (if things are dire) pink pistols or other "apolitical" gun club.

I've been in the SRA for 4 years, it's not great, but I met comrades local to me. I've learned a lot from them and fash who post good firearms advice and I love to share that when I can.

Open for questions and I'll post more getting started stuff if this doesn't get banned.

top 47 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] BertramDitore@lemmy.world 26 points 2 months ago (4 children)

It has been shown repeatedly that owning a gun makes you less safe. It increases the likelihood that you will be the victim of a crime, homicide, or suicide (accidental or otherwise).

We need fewer guns not more.

[–] 31337@sh.itjust.works 19 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The "victim of a crime, homicide" thing is likely just a correlation. If person is more likely to be in danger, they are more likely to have a gun.

I've seen some people posit that the Black Panther's armed patrols deterred police violence in their communities. On the other hand, I guess their leaders were eventually killed by the Feds. As a side effect, the Black Panthers also caused governments and the NRA to support gun control, lol.

[–] BertramDitore@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Study after study has shown that having a gun in the home was linked with nearly three times higher odds that someone would be killed at home by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

more permissive gun laws are making people less safe. In the states with the weakest gun laws, gun deaths rose 46 percent from 2012 to 2020, compared with just a 7 percent increase in the states with the strongest gun laws over that same period. Source

[–] 31337@sh.itjust.works -4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I mean, that would obviously be the case. It depends on the person and personal circumstances. For some people (maybe even most), domestic violence is not a threat at all. The conclusion to the second article you linked is, "state-level firearm ownership rates are related to rates of domestic but not nondomestic firearm homicide."

I think it's probably not good that the increasing number of fascist-leaning people in the US are much more likely to be own guns than non-fascists. I'm very much pro gun-control, but until guns are banned, I think more leftist and liberals should own and know how to use guns if their situation permits.

[–] BertramDitore@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

It’s totally your right to believe that more leftists should own guns, I have no issue with that opinion, but the data we have says that those people will end up less safe overall. Of course it all depends on the person and their personal circumstances, but that’s not what big statistical studies are about, they’re about generalizations that can be applied to large populations of different types of people. And the best data we have shows that owning a gun makes you or someone you love three-times more likely to be killed by that gun.

[–] drkt@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I agree with you in that Joe Schmoe shouldn't be having guns in his home. That doesn't mean you can't support the existence of gun ranges and practice using guns! It may come in useful one day, even if you don't get to bring your gun home with you.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It may come in useful one day,

By that logic, I need to learn to fly helicopter. The odds are higher I'll solve something with a helicopter. As former infantry, I assert that guns don't solve any problems ever.

[–] drkt@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

Well, I can fly a helicopter...

[–] BertramDitore@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

100% I’m all for gun safety training and gun ranges.

[–] ArmokGoB@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

We need more groups like the Black Panthers to dissuade the police and the state from committing violence against people.

[–] maniii@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

But, for Breonna Taylor's BF owning and operating a gun when police rwongly executed a No-Knock Illegal Warrant, the BF shooting at armed unknown unannounced "intruders" directly led to her death.

Police or the state or the judge were not at fault ( even though everything they did was illegal ) but it was the gun-defense by the BF that killed her.

:smh: when I hear how good the 2A is compared to the entire US constitution.

[–] nagaram@startrek.website 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Point taken. I agree with you. I've always agreed with those facts.

But there's an armed an increasingly well trained and organized movement of would be brown shirts. They've repeatedly shown their willingness to escalate violence at protests and threaten violence towards LGBT events. They've demonstrated a willingness to act on the federal government with violence. And huge swathsof that population are police.

They have guns. I'm in a queer relationship. I'm a target. I have guns.

[–] BertramDitore@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Completely fair. Since your eyes are wide open, I respect you and your choices. I know I can be too preachy sometimes, but I wish you the best. I genuinely hope you never need your gun.

[–] nagaram@startrek.website 5 points 2 months ago

Me too, comrade.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The ruling class would sure love you to have this opinion.

[–] mishielda1234@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Hmmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_congressional_candidates_who_received_campaign_money_from_the_National_Rifle_Association

[–] Clent@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Have you considered they want you to have the opinion you currently have?

They profit off your fear.

They profit off your death.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The point is for them to fear us. The only reason you're not chained to a factory right this second is that our forefathers took up arms and fought a second Civil War in this nation. One they don't like to talk to you about in schools. The only reason any leftist movement has ever succeeded anywhere on this planet is by Force of Arms. The ruling class needs to know that we're capable of killing them all, because that's the soul and only reason we exist. Every single law is nothing without that to back it up.

As for profit, yeah they'll make money off it if they can, but you'll notice that these same people have no problem with taking away guns from us when it's convenient. You'll notice they don't stand up for gun rights when fascist thugs kick down doors and murder people. So while they will profit off me when they can, they know the real profit won't come from me but from the ruling class. So forgive me if I don't trust them to keep it fair at the end of the day. They'll happily take that trade off to disarm all the leftists.

[–] Clent@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's a long winded way to say no.

You sound prepared to be pointed at an enemy but not prepared to understand who will be pointing you.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You sound like someone who's fallen for neoliberal propaganda and who basically is the perfect spokesman for the needs of capitalism.

[–] Clent@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You are displaying a poor ability to judge others political positions.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, I just understand who benefits most from disarming leftists.

[–] Clent@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You clearly believe you understand that. Just as I understand the people who benefit from class infighting and alienating potential allies. Just as I understand the type of character that responds poorly to their ideas being challenged. Just as I understand the left has its own flavor of gravy seals.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'm sorry what? You think that the working class fighting against the ruling class is good for the ruling class? Well that's a freaking statement. I reiterate you are a wonderful spokesman for capitalism.

[–] Arbiter@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

So long as one other person on this earth is armed, your best have a gun too.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 15 points 2 months ago (2 children)

No. I am not good with hand-eye coordination and I can't envision myself ever being able to kill someone.

[–] nagaram@startrek.website 3 points 2 months ago

This is something I also struggle with. So much of the lefty philosophy is around acknowledging and respecting everyone as intrinsically human with a life worth preserving. Often I have a hard time hating the average Trump supporter or fascist shill because I know there's a million factors out of their control that got them there.

I have to remind myself constantly that my life is worth more than someone's who's chosen to harm another.

Guns aren't for everyone and I understand that. I don't think I could ever become a partisan in a revolution but I don't intend to be a statistic. If you do choose to have a weapon for self defense please at least train with it. Even pepper spray you can get refillable water squirting versions.

If you do want to try guns one day, I'd suggest a Pistol Caliber Carbine like the Ruger PCC. It shoots pistol rounds out of a carbine/rifle so it's much easier to control. The rifle in this picture is a KP-9.

[+] njm1314@lemmy.world -14 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Shotgun.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago (2 children)

What is the situation you envision where I'd be willing to pull the trigger on a shotgun but not willing to kill someone?

[–] sxan@midwest.social 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

There are many loads you could use that have good survivability yet are also decent at incapacitating. Go for a high (18, or 20) gauge and use buckshot. You can even get out make rock salt loads that are even safer. Hurt like hell, but there's a decent chance they'll survive if you don't shoot them in the face.

I mean, look: if it's you, your family, or your friends, vs them, you still wouldn't be able to pull a trigger? Then at least ask your spouse to train, so they can protect you when the NeoNazis march.

Even if the answer is "no," and you know you could never intentionally kill someone, then at least arm yourself with the least lethal weapon you can find - a high caliber shotgun with rubber shot or salt loads. They make shotgun shells that shoot rubber and tear gas. You've tried to be minimally lethal while still protecting yourself and your loved ones. But with these chucklefucks, trying to be a pacifist and hoping they'll just pass you by, that they won't rape your daughter, or wife (or husband), or neighbor or neighbor's kid while you stand impotently by... to me, knowing I could have some something but chose not is cause for far more moral anguish and guilt than killing someone who was threatening me and mine.

No spouse? No kids? No friends or loved ones you'd protect? No concern for innocents - kids of the wrong color, or kids wearing pride shirts? Nobody you care enough to protect?

Edmund Burke is famously quoted[^1] as saying, «The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.»[^2]

[^1]: Burke did, in 1770, say, «When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.» There's no evidence Burke ever said the other quote, but it was immortalized by Kennedy in 1961 "quoting" Burke with those words.

[^2]: It is more likely a paraphrase of a quote by British philosopher John Stuart Mill, who in 1867 said «Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.»

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yes, I've heard the "wouldn't you kill people if your family was threatened" line before. Having never been in that situation, I can't answer it. I do know, however, that I do not want a gun. Is it okay with you that I don't want a gun?

[–] sxan@midwest.social 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Sure. You do you.

You didn't say "I don't want a gun," though; you said that you didn't think you could pull the trigger on a gun to kill someone, and that's different.

Are you anti-gun, uninterested in guns in general, a pacifist? I mean, could you kill someone with a knife, but just not a gun? Or are you opposed to all actions involving physical defense?

It sounded as if you just believe that you don't have it in you to take a life, which is fine; I think that's the normal, healthy human condition. But that's not necessarily an indication of pacifism.

This isn't an abstract, philosophical, unlikely prospect we face. Project 2025 outlines the extent to which American Fascists are willing to go, and January 6th demonstrated it.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I really do not feel the need to continue to justify myself to you.

Go ahead and imply that my stance enables fascism or whatever. I'm sure you'll definitely berate me into picking up a gun and getting in the trenches.

[–] sxan@midwest.social 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

No, dude. Did you read what I wrote? I said

I don't care if you want or have a gun.
I clarified how I interpreted your comment, which bore directly on how I framed my response (not wanting to kill ≠ pacifism & also in no way implies not wanting to own a gun).
I asked questions to further conversation, which is how people communicate; in this case trying to find where you draw a line on violence.
I said I thought it was healthy to not think you could kill someone.
I pointed out that - for me, at least - this isn't a hypothetical situation; that I believe it's a serious topic deserving debate, which people should be thinking and taking about. In particular, I'm not trolling - these are real issues.

What I did not say is that you needed to justify yourself, and there was no ad-hominem attack in my response.

I think we've interacted before, and while I could be mistaken, I thought we'd had some good conversation with common ground. But it could be that we've butt heads before and that's why I recognize your username.

In any case, OP's post reflects a growing feeling, especially among the targets of P.2025 - minorities, the poor - that they need to prepare to defend themselves for violence. You obviously don't, for whatever reason, but many people do. And I think we should be talking about this.

[–] VelvetStorm@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Is it okay with you that I don't want a gun?

Absolutely. No one should own a gun if they don't think they could use it. You and your views are 100% valid and ok to have and fuck the other edge lord who I'm guessing jerks off to war footage. I loath people with that kind of attitude.

[–] Kroxx@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago

and fuck the other edge lord

Somebody can't read

[–] slackassassin@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You probably meant birdshot, not buckshot.

[–] sxan@midwest.social 3 points 2 months ago

Yes, I did. Although, I think the rubber + CS loads are basically slugs.

But there, I did really mean birdshot.

[–] Jumi@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Fight fire with fire and watch the world burn

[–] nagaram@startrek.website 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I prefer

"Do no harm. Take no shit."

[–] berrim@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

"Love everyone. But never sell your sword."

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Dupe post

[–] nagaram@startrek.website 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Did I mess something up? I've never posted to lemmy before.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 months ago

It was posted twice

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago

I think you meant dope