Politicians be like
this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2024
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I'm so confused here. I was under the impression that the entire argument for capitalist markets was that they produce cheaper and better goods than is possible to do with central state planning. Yet, here we have the capitalist west complaining that Chinese state driven model if producing goods that western companies are simply not able to compete with. Somebody help me understand.
Capitalists hate capitalism. Competition is so irritating, because someone might undercut you. (And other people would cheat to win, just like you would, so you can't ever relax.)
And I'm sure those Chinese workers definitely have the same compensation and rights as American or European workers.
having morals is a skill issue that leads to higher operational costs
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@geneva_convenience It's exactly the same that also happened several years ago between the US and the EU concerning civil planes. Here Boeing and Airbus compete against each other - and the US had the assumption, that the EU subsidized Airbus so that Boeing couldn't compete. Because of that the US thought about tariffs that would have countered this.
is this the famous "invisible hand of the market"?
Is your argument pro market regulation or against market regulation or just there to stir up shit?
The EU is a heavily regulated market economy. Broadly that creates better outcomes and higher levels of happiness for its citizens.
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Once again ordinary people in the West are saved from affordable, low-pollution living, and Western companies are saved from having to compete.
It is massively clownish though because as the barrier to entry goes up higher everyone will just switch to micromobility which is built mostly by the Chinese
That's catchy, but not entirely true.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general), plus they have cheaper environmental and labour standards... it's not like there's a fair market EU companies can compete in without some sort of handicap.
PS: Yes, "western" countries have been playing along with China's deliberate long term strategy with full awareness of where it would lead, but that's another story that is both much older and has a much broader scope than the EV industry.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general), plus they have cheaper environmental and labour standards… it’s not like there’s a fair market EU companies can compete in without some sort of handicap.
Hah. Volkswagen is in trouble right now because they fucked up the transition to electric cars completly. What do you think will happen now? That's right, we the (German) people will have to save them now, with our money. Basically the same shit as a subsidy, just later in the process. Kinda like what the Chinese do, just the really stupid way.
Oh, and of course, it will be everybody's fault but their own.
I wish they had an eGolf comparable to the Bolt and the Leaf.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general)
And that's a bad thing? Any sensible government is going to subsidise renewable energy and electric vehicles. It makes both economic and environmental sense. Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
Subsidizing sales of EVs (ie. I pay for my neighbor's new EV because I want cleaner air) does make environmental sense.
Subsidizing production does not have the same positive environmental impact, mainly because factories in China pollute more than factories, say, in the EU (due to different environmental laws), but also because moving finished products from China to the "west" obviously pollutes more than moving just those components that would need to be sourced from China anyways (eg. batteries).
As for the "makes economic sense" part... IDK: I guess that mainly depend on your political stance.
Personally, I don't like that both sales and production subsidies have the effect of moving money from the poor to the rich, but other people may focus on different effects (eg. more production = more jobs) and support subsides.
In case you wonder: my take is that, instead of incentivizing adoption and production of EVs, one should disincentivize internal combustion vehicles by adding taxes to them (which, in a sense, aren't really taxes but just charging for the very real environmental costs society as a whole will have to pay for your shiny SUV).
Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
You should really think twice before spewing judgements... and also avoid misusing words like "terrorist" because, when misused this way, it only conveys that you don't like someone, dulling your message instead of strengthening it.
Subsidizing production does not … from China anyways (eg. batteries).
I'm asking why the EU isn't subsudising their domestic EV industry and starting a competition in electric propulsion technology. That would benefit everyone, except maybe the oil lobby.
one should disincentivize internal combustion vehicles by adding taxes to them
Why not both? And preferrably better subsidies for public transport / cycles / footpaths, etc.
avoid misusing words like "terrorist" because, when misused this way
If killing a handful of people is terrorism, what would you call trying to kill the entire human race (along with thousands of random other species)? 'Terrorist' is, if anything, too mild a word to describe such filth.
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Can you explain to us what the problem with China subsidizing EV manufacturers is exactly? That's how China chooses to run their economy, and it's entirely their business. The whole argument for capitalist markets is that they're supposed to be more competitive last I checked. If that's not the case then maybe the west should reexamine its assumptions about how an economy should be run.
@yogthos @gomp It's the capitalist textbook example, to conquer a market by undercutting prices and to crush competition in that market that cannot compete - and to later increase prices when there is no more competition. You can see this all over the world, not only with China and EVs, but also for example with Uber and the taxi business or Europe with their food exports to poorer countries outside the EU.
China is already dominating lots of markets, and what you're describing isn't happening. For example, pretty much all solar panels are produced in China, and they're still dirt cheap today.
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This is the market place, brah. If the US or EU want to keep up, they can subsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree. We are just too stuck on subsidizing O&G to realize that harvesting value from a dying industry is going to leave us out in the cold as the new technology matures.
Free market capitalism and what we operate under haven’t been the same thing for as long as I’ve been alive. What some may call “Communist China” is beating us at the game. Get on the bus or get run the fuck over.
If the US or EU want to keep up, they can sunbsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree
You can't allow dumping-inducing subsidies without also allowing defensive tariffs, otherwise the richer and more authoritarian countries, which have greater capacity for subsidies and greater ability to concentrate them in specific sectors, will easily kill foreign competition and establish monopolies.
The marketplace brah is a place where, without regulations that maintain a degree of fairness, the rich kills the poor, competition dies off, and consumers are drained to their last cent.
Just think of it: competition is when different actors fight it off and it ends the moment one of the contenders wins.
If you want the fight to go on forever, you don't want an unregulated market.
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