this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2024

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195

People outside the US, how do you feel US expats or exiles would do in your country or region? (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 week ago by multicolorKnight@lemmy.world to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

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NGL, not asking for a friend. Given the current trends in US politics, it seems prudent to at least look into it.

Most of the online content on the topic seems to be by immigration attorneys hustling ultra rich people. I'm not ultra rich. I have a job in tech, could work remotely, also have enough assets to not desperately need money if the cost of living were low enough.

I am a native English speaker, fluent enough in Spanish to survive in a Spanish speaking country. I am old, male, cis, hetero, basically asexual at this point. I am outgoing, comfortable among strangers.

What's good and bad about where you live? Would it be OK for a outsider, newcomer?

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[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 27 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (5 children)

You would do good here in The Netherlands. Lots of tech jobs, over here you actually have rights as an employee. No max amount of sick days for example, as no one plans a certain amount of days to be sick. The "FrEeDoM" Americans claim to have is so twisted and extremity far away from actual freedom. Here in NL I do feel I have true freedom. As in: not having to be scared when going out on the streets at night, no matter where I go. There are no guns. No crimes against humanity. Of course we do have issues, every country does. But they are tiny compared to most countries. Although we did vote for right wing parties sadly, we're not heading in the direction I want.

Oh and EVERYONE speaks English. From child to boomer. Officially it's not a foreign language anymore due to the high level English most speak. They are even discussing it should be a 3rd national language.

Edit: there's also a (very unfair to us natives) 30%!!! tax cut for expats to make NL more attractive. So you will make a lot of money yet pay less taxes while having loads of benifits as an employee.

Only issue right now is finding a house. Not enough houses so insane prices. A real housing crisis.

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I have American friends who emigrated to the Netherlands and I go there a lot on business too. There are a few other things that are worth considering: Dutch people are generally friendly, but they also tend to take a strong line on assimilation. If you want to live there, learn Dutch and learn how Dutch culture works. Otherwise you won't fit in. As with any society, there are unwritten rules and norms of behavior that might seem strange at first. For example, the Dutch value frankness more than diplomacy. That can make them seem blunt, even to Americans.

Dutch is not far from English, both are on the same branch of the Germanic languages, but it's very idiomatic, so fluency can be hard to achieve. Also, the fact that everyone's so good at English reduces the pressure to learn Dutch. Language learning's quicker when it's the only way you can communicate.

And the previous poster's comment on the housing shortage is no exaggeration: it's a crisis. Expect difficulty and predatory middlemen when seeking housing.

Also, the weather can be intense: freezing North Sea winds and sideways rain.

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Whaaaaaat....?

We are very multicultural, if you don't want to adjust, that's fine. There are enough people around who are similar to you. Only if you want to fit in you need to adjust, but that's in any culture. Over here there's not that much pressure to do that. Unless you live in the countryside.

Dutch and English are not similar at all. They have completely different origins. Dutch has a germanic origin and English an anglosaxon heritage.

The weather is not intense at all. It's just humid, so 25C feels like 35C and 5C feels like -5C. But not as humid as a rainforest. Near the coast there's some wind, but in the cities and inland not too much. Winters have become mild, summers kinda hot but compared to other regions of the world our climate is very mild. Just expect a lot of rain, but compared to the UK even that aspect is really mild too. Just prepare for us to always complain about it. And about everything else too.

Yeah, Dutch people are generally pretty blunt. When you tell something we don't like will will tell you, politely, where a British person would say "ah that's interesting". For autistic people (like me) our directness is really nice. No beating around the bush.

[–] underburglar@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Some English world have a Germanic origin, like "fart".

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Yeah, and vice verse. Europe has a long history, would be weird if there were no words adopted from another language.

[–] thelsim@sh.itjust.works 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

A small side note on that 30% ruling, it's only for highly skilled workers, so there are some requirements to meet.
Also, you'd best not boast about it to your Dutch coworkers if you want to make friends over here :)

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

In tech it's not that hard to get it. It's purpose is to make NL attractive to educated workers. Especially these days there are not enough employees in many sectors, so as long as you have an education or can prove you have specialized work experience you're good.

[–] Dearth@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Do you think bike shops in there Nerherlands would be interested in hiring American bicycle mechanics?

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago

Yeah, for sure. Mechanics are getting scarce, everyone is pushed to get "HiGhEr EdUcAtIoN" so everyone knows how to use a keyboard but never used a hammer and a screwdriver. A lot of uddy of mine is a carpenter, the money he makes is insane because there just aren't that many skilled people put there anymore. Our bikes have a bit different design, people sit more up right as we use it as a form of transportation instead of for sports. But the mechanics work the same. Although electric bikes are taking over the market right now.

[–] JigglySackles@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Housing is one of the biggest stuggles for my family. I have 3 kids and so few houses are built for that in the EU. It's really frustrating every time I look for something.

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[–] PrimeMinisterKeyes@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The housing crisis is prevalent everywhere in Europe, though. But it's not like droves of people have to sleep rough. Yes, rents keep going up, but they are still only a fraction of what you would pay in the US.
And you can actually still buy houses. Really cheap, even. Far off the highways, but some people opt in to exactly that.

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

The Netherlands has a worse housing crisis then the rest of Europe. Houses are not cheaper then in the US. Far from it. Also, the US is really big, so you can't say that actually. San Francisco and Detroit have completely different housing markets for example. Next to that, here in NL we don't build huizes from wood, which makes them more expensive as well. And our government extremity limited construction due to EU emission regulations because they are too scared to limit the biggest polutors, the farmers, with their massive export production. Because farmers protest with tractors and tractors are scary. So we prefer farming exports over housing apparently. Because we don't buy fruits and vegetables produced in The Netherlands, they are too expensive. We buy cheap tasteless junk from Spain and Egypt. So most agricultural production is for export. The profits of our farmers are more important to us then being able to pay our own bills and aging a roof over our heads.

[–] EnderMB@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm in the UK, and I work with a LOT of Americans already, so know this first hand:

You fuckers are always in for a culture shock when you realise that everywhere isn't like London. You seem to either expect London or Harry Potter Land, but when you end up somewhere like Bristol, Leeds, or Birmingham the frame of reference just dies and you see the wheels turning in your head trying to make sense of it all.
Weirdly, you seem to really like our supermarkets. They're a lot smaller than yours, meal deals are a novelty that never gets old, and paying the price on the tag is the greatest thing ever.
You love our bread, and our chocolate is like crack to you. You'd think that you'd moved to France or something...
Butter on bread will fuck you up. You use Mayo all the time, but we use butter/spread, and it messes with your minds.
You quickly learn that Europe is a continent, and that cultures across the continent are very different to one another. You also learn that no one knows US history that well, or that we had a war with you (since we have basically had a war with everyone at some point).
The drinking culture is a really interesting one. Some love it, some hate it. It's a staple of British life
We get paid a lot less than you do, but your money will go much further because you're not spending it on healthcare. You'll also get taxed a lot, but ultimately you'll earn enough to be comfortable, and a comfortable life in the UK is nice.

To answer your question, you're more than welcome here, and it's much easier to get a visa to the UK for you than for us to go to the US. Expect some people to give you shit for Trump, but give them shit back for Brexit and electing the Tories for 15 years.

[–] multicolorKnight@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Now we're talking. I have been to the UK quite a bit, and work with plenty of Brits here, so:
Americans are not generally in the habit of addressing people as "you fuckers" until we know you better. :)
UK supermarkets are more like US conveniences stores with more food and no fuel pumps in front. They are OK.
Agreed, the existence of anything besides London, Liverpool, and maybe Manchester is totally a blank to us. Went to Birmingham, had no ckue.
Butter on bread is the only way, don't know where you got that from.
No reason you guys should care about US history. English history is much more interesting.
Engkish pubs are good. Beer, I think, has gotten better in the US recently.
After Brexit, the UK has permanently renounced the right to criticize anyone's politics. Still, recent developments there give me hope that it's possible to come out the other end of this.
Thank you.

[–] thawed_caveman@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm in France and my cousin married an American.

Cost of living is high and the language is bullshit, but the standards of living are some of the best in the world. Very old established democracy and rule of law, workers rights, social security, and whatever the complete opposite of political apathy is. Culture is rich with a disproportionate level of global relevance for the country's size. The location is ideal in the middle of europe, with a good variety of landscapes and climate.

Internet is cheap and fast, but i don't know anything about the state of tech jobs.

I don't know much about the tax system either but my assumption is you might save money just on the healthcare alone.

Overall i wouldn't recommend, you'd be better off in a country with a language closer to english, such as most countries north of France. They'll have better english proficiency and you'll learn the language easier.

[–] multicolorKnight@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

France always comes up on lists of good places to live, and there are Francophiles here as everywhere. I admire the place, but I chose Spanish instead of French when it was time to start studying another language, so that die was cast a long time ago.

[–] thawed_caveman@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yeah i don't think it's worth learning french for almost any reason, lots more people speak spanish

[–] JohnnyEnzyme@lemm.ee 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

the language is bullshit
i don’t think it’s worth learning french for almost any reason

Personally I'm learning French because it's the language of bande dessinée, and in order to enjoy more BD, plus run my sublemmy more effectively, it's an obvious choice.

Anyway I find French much harder than Spanish, but am slowly getting the hang of it... I think. Gender is complete BS to me, and it seems like there are tonnes of little grammar rules to follow. Is that why you called it bullshit, yourself?

[–] thawed_caveman@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, so by all accounts i'm the kind of person most likely to love the french language: native speaker, effortless spelling and grammar, avid reader of BD, i even like the flowery and decorative aspects of the language (language soutenu); but then i also speak other languages, and this gives me the perspective that, from a practical standpoint, there's a lot of issues with french. There's layers of sediment accumulated over centuries, a lot of rules and spellings are vestigial and serve no purpose anymore other than make it harder.

Also, a lot of rules and spellings come from grammarians just saying so, and writing prescriptivist style guides to make people spell The Correct Way. To a point, i even think the ability to invent and follow an arbitrary The Correct Way hass been a class signal.

Even native french speakers sometimes have bad grammar, or at least that's much more common than english speakers having bad grammar.

English speakers say the same things about their language, but they don't know about ô <--- this accent and the agony of trying to guess when it should be used or not. It's supposed to indicate a difference in pronunciation, but this difference depends on the accent and is also obvious from context. I've known teachers to dock points for shit like this, and it radicalized me against arbitrary rules despite being completely capable of following them. In my opinion, people use features that have a purpose; if people don't use it, then it's pointless.

And from a global perspective, fewer people speak french than a lot of other languages. On the one hand this doesn't matter, lots of people speak mandarin, it's about who you're likely to interact with; but i'd say your more likely to interact with spanish speakers.

Unless of course you're that much into BD. That doesn't surprise me at all, lots of english speakers learned japanese for weeb reasons, i think it's completely legit to learn a language for the culture. Actually i find it pretty impressive

[–] multicolorKnight@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Hate to sound ignorant here, what's BD?

There are more French than English speakers with bad grammar? I find that difficult to believe.

[–] thawed_caveman@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

BD = Bande Dessinée, the french term for both graphic novels and comics. Both have a huge history in Europe in general and France-Belgium in particular, but it's extremely unusual for english speakrs to know or care, it's really appreciated.

I guess i shouldn't speak so definitively, it's not like i have data to back up the fact that there are more French than English speakers with bad grammar; but really, french grammar is worse than complex, it's unintuitive and arbitrary, and it does feel like i see more french speakers with bad grammar. For what that's worth

[–] mayhair@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I don't know why anyone (who doesn't have ancestry there) would want to move to Pakistan. Sure, it's not completely undeveloped (otherwise I wouldn't be sending this message lol), but it still has a VEEERRRRRYY long way to go compared to other industrialised countries.

Electricity has become more reliable over the years, but you still have to deal with increasing bills, so that the government can pay off its IMF loans
Piped gas still isn't 24/7, it's off from 10 pm to 6 am
Tap water still isn't drinkable
Karachi, Lahore, and Islamabad disproportionately receive the lion's share of development while smaller cities are neglected
Even Karachi can be said to not be as developed as Lahore or Islamabad. When I visited it, I found that it was greatly overpopulated and many apartment buildings were extremely worn-down. Chipping paint for instance. My father says that since Lahore and Islamabad are a comfortable driving distance away from each other, the population is more evenly distributed between the two cities. Hyderabad's near Karachi, but remember, it's not a big three city ...
Even the development in Lahore and Islamabad is not optimal. Mostly relying on private housing projects, not making an effort to make them integrate with the rest of the city
Suboptimal public transport. In Lahore there is a public bus and metro system, but both don't cover too much of the city. For intercity buses, people rely on private companies such as Daewoo Express. And again, the reliance on private housing projects hinders true city-wide planning
Professionals (doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc.) receive very low salaries compared to what they could earn abroad. The devaluation of the rupee is related to it, but only partially. That's why millions of us have moved abroad to literally every other country, and thus why remittances are a big portion of this country's income
Lahore is literally the smoggiest city in the world right now. Did I mention it's one of the three most developed?
Too much non-air pollution as well. There is a culture of littering, partially because people aren't punished for it and thus have adopted a care-free attitude, and partially because there aren't enough outdoor wastebins

I haven't even gotten into the sociopolitical aspects ... I'd be writing a whole book at that point

[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 9 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Too bad some of the people who need the protection the most (disabled Americans) are unwelcome. Sucks to be us I guess.

[–] JohnnyEnzyme@lemm.ee 1 points 5 days ago

Unwelcome where, exactly?

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