I am really loving S2; every episode has been amazing.
this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2023
24 points (92.9% liked)
Wheel of Time
295 readers
1 users here now
Discussion of the Wheel of Time Books and Show.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Same here! I generally enjoyed season 1, though the last episodes were a bit of a letdown (due to Covid). Season 2 has been stellar and improved upon almost everything.
I've read the books, and to my own surprise, I'm okay with the changes they've made. I might get some criticism for this, but I think the show is doing some things better than the books. They've kept the spirit of the books alive, even with all the major changes they've introduced, IMO.
I agree. I'm actually really glad that the show is different, because now I get to experience this story that I love for the first time - a second time!
Yea I'm reading the books now and am still behind the show (though not by much now, finished book 1 a couple of days ago). And so far my experience comparing them with the show has been surprisingly favourable to the show's adaptation choices. From the negative responses I figured there'd be obvious mistakes all over the place. But so far I feel like they're doing a nice job, especially given the time constraints they're under.
::: spoiler spoilers for book 1 and early book 2
Small examples ... introducing Liandrin and the relationship between Moraine and the Amyrlin early makes a lot of sense.
A lot of the hate is squeaky-wheel . And yeah, some people were hoping for a page-by-page re-enactment in 500 seasons. The Wheel of Time is a notoriously flawed masterpiece. Yes, still a masterpiece (as a superfan, I'd say THE masterpiece), but with some specific really severe issues... some of which you've already seen (but maybe missed) and others that you have to look forward to.
For example, the Eye of the World climax is considered by most to be the worst scene in the series. It's not really a spoiler to say they introduce some characters/concepts that don't affect the plot and are never really mentioned again, and as a One Power Wonk, certain things happen that DIRECTLY break the rules of how the One Power works for the rest of the series. Rand should have died, burned out instantly, and there's really nothing that should have changed that fact.
And yet, the show replacement gets more hate than the original did. And despite COVID issues, it wasn't that terrible. One issue with Nynaeve looking dead when she wasn't supposed to look dead. Big deal, imo.
One issue with Nynaeve looking dead when she wasn’t supposed to look dead.
The show in season 2 not mentioning that at all seems to indicate they'd like to forget about it too. Step too far for sure IMO.
It’s not really a spoiler to say they introduce some characters/concepts that don’t affect the plot and are never really mentioned again
I'm guessing Green(/ent) man and their Tom Bombadil space are what you're talking about here?
And yet, the show replacement gets more hate than the original did.
As someone who hadn't read the book by that stage, but has since, I rather like the show ending. It introduces Ishamael to us, who's awesome, emphasises Rand's immaturity, and more so than the book ending, makes it clear that Morraine (and Rand) are likely in way over their heads and that the Dark one's plan is big and will take some time to unfold. The latter is there in the dream sequences in the book, but it also works well as an ending.
Rand should have died, burned out instantly
Yea ... as I read that I said to myself "oh, Rand goes super saiyan, ok!". I guess the idea at that point in the universe is that's what the purified saidin was for, so that someone could go nuts without burning out. I'm guessing by your comments that that isn't made more clear down the track. Personally I'm ok with the eye being the reason. But as a story point, it's pretty cheap. Even the way Rand manages to attack Ba'alzamon in a way that seems like he is dead or whatever. I'm hoping that comes back to be explained as to what exactly happened (I'm halfway through book 2), because if not, it really wasn't necessary for that encounter to go that far ... it feels very much like Jordan felt like the book had to have some sense of finality even though it was going to be overturned immediately.
The show in season 2 not mentioning that at all seems to indicate they’d like to forget about it too. Step too far for sure IMO
Step too far? I think we have to remember that the "Nynaeve was resurrected" opinion among non-readers was not that common. Most of the people confused/complaining about that scene were readers. The rest of folks concluded Nynaeve was unconscious because an actual resurrection would have warranted comment by people. In THAT situation, not commenting on it in S2 was confirmation to non-readers that Nynaeve was merely unconscious.
I’m guessing Green(/ent) man and their Tom Bombadil space are what you’re talking about here?
Yeah. The impact of the Eye itself as well, hiding the Horn and a Dragon Banner.
I rather like the show ending
100% agreed. We get a less cartoony version of Ishamael with all the best traits of his equivalent in the books.
I guess the idea at that point in the universe is that’s what the purified saidin was for, so that someone could go nuts without burning out
Except that breaks the rules.
Minor Rules-Wonk Spoilers
Ok, two things no novice ever hears you before looking at this spoiler tag.
First, burning out comes from channeling more than your body can handle, NOT more than your soul can handle. Related, the rules of Wheel of Time place no limit on how much power any trained channeler can draw. They just burn themselves to death instantly without being able to use it... Or ride the line and do one last blaze 10x or more stronger than they can safely handle. "Weep For Manetheren".
Pointing to the above, the important point is that an untrained/unseasoned Rand canonically could not channel as much power as Aginor can. Aginor is formally rated ++2 in the power, with Rand ++1, but the difference between "initial strength" and "potential strength" is at least 2 full tiers at those power levels... making baby Rand likely a full tier WEAKER than Aginor at the Eye... Whether it came from an untainted pool or from himself, it would have killed him as easily as if they overchanneled himself. And Aginor "burned himself to death instantly" drawing/doing less with the Power than Rand does. For the above reasons, he also has no real motivation to have drawn all that power. Canonically perhaps the most analytical/scientific-minded of the Forsaken killed in a mad power grab he didn't even need?
Second, there is an important difference between a Pool of Saidin and an angreal or sa'angreal. The latter generally do two things - they increase how much of the power you can draw without injuring yourself, and they provide what is referred to as "a buffer" that physically prevents you from overchanneling. So as unpleasant(and addictive) as can be, you are safe going balls-to-the-wall with twice your naked potential when you hold an angreal.
A pool of saidin having no enhancing or buffer effects, Rand channeling something he could easily do with an angreal should still kill him. And what he does at the Eye is pushing it compared to things he does with sa'angreal.
I’m hoping that comes back to be explained as to what exactly happened (I’m halfway through book 2)
It does, fortunately. It's also one of the awkward points to a parallel read/watch. If you think really carefully at what you've seen/read, you'll already know some of the answer.
it feels very much like Jordan felt like the book had to have some sense of finality even though it was going to be overturned immediately.
Yeah, good eye. I was young when I first read the Wheel of Time, but I didn't put 2+2 together until years later. It's dizzying to think about, but next year (I remember because it was the year Lord of Chaos hit the shelves, and I remember where I was when I first saw it) marks the 30th anniversary of my picking up Eye of the World and it becoming my #1 reading obsession ever since.
If you think really carefully at what you’ve seen/read, you’ll already know some of the answer.
Maybe spoilery from ending of book 1 onward
If I were to take a quick stab at it, I'd guess it's how the broken seal that gets recovered from the eye of the world was actually broken? Rand thinks he is attacking Ba'alzamon's source of power (by cutting it) but it's actually the binds of the seals?
No need to correct me or anything if it's spoilery ... just thought I'd share what my initial guess was/is.
Pretty much spot on. I meant regarding Ba’alzamon’s fate directly, though. The show tells us straight out what the books allude to for a little while.
Honestly, the spoiler I'm referring to is so obvious you probably think I'm referring to something else, but what I'm referencing is not clearly mentioned in the books for a bit longer. And of Book 2 or early Book 3 I think. Moiraine has said it directly twice in the show, though. About Ba'alzamon's nature.
Yea ... not sure what you're referring to here ... but that's ok ... I'll keep reading! Thanks again!!
Fair enough :)
It's probably something so obvious to you that you didn't realize it was being kept secret in the books. Either way, have a great day and enjoy!
I've been enjoying season 2 more than season 1. Season 1 had some visible clunkiness, while season 2 feels tighter and more certain of itself.
Generally though, I think the show is suffering, as many shows are IME, from a lack of breathing room. 8 episodes can be rather constrictive and I suspect the show would benefit a lot from having 10 or 12 episode seasons. Something like Andor (star wars) being a good exemplar of what can be done with 12 episodes. Star Trek SNW has recently come up against this with the show runners openly calling out for having longer seasons. Generally, there seems to be a growing awareness that pushing too far into a Movie-like approach to run times can damage a TV show, and at 8 episodes, adapting source material like WoT, I suspect some damage is or is about to be done.
For me, every episode has been better than the one before it this season, and only 1 or 2 episodes from season 1 are actually on par with the average for season 2. The new character introductions have been on point, especially Aviendha today, and the Forsaken are WAY more intriguing and scary in the show than they were in the books.
The problems I have involve too little screen time for Mat (I want book 3 Mat ASAP), and not enough swordplay for Rand and Lan. But other than that, I am loving the show.
Totally agree on the Forsaken, looks like they've cut out and/or merged together all of the incompetent clowns so the remaining ones can get down to business
Yeah Lan talks way too much compared to the books LOL but that's fine. If he's going to be a character he has to talk. And yes Mat's role is where my beef is I guess. They are slowly re-integrating him back into the story line. Characters are not the same as in the books anymore. They've changed them to suit a TV show.
I've only finished EP3. I thought forsaken were pretty scary in the book too with supernatural abilities?
Characters are not the same as in the books anymore
I kinda disagree. A lot of people have said this, but I think what we're missing out is just the Chibi/Tolkien coloring of characters early on. If we readers saw any of these actors/characters dropped into another fantasy setting, our knee-jerk would be "wait, why the hell did they steal Mat from Wheel of Time for this show?"
Some of the growth curves were smoothed. They opened us with dark Mat, and they used the actor change to expedite us through that phase into the "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" Mat we get for 5-6 books or so.
Heck, even Lan. I'd say he has a similar number of lines per scene as in the book. We just don't get nonstop internal monologue from characters saying "he's stony-faced and he never talks".
I’ve only finished EP3. I thought forsaken were pretty scary in the book too with supernatural abilities?
Why does everyone who criticizes the show "being different from the books" end up having a weak grasp of the books? Yes, the Forsaken are terrifying. They don't really have "supernatural abilities" beyond the One Power. They have a smattering of Talents (Semhirage is a scary-good healer, but we never really see her heal anyone... Lanfear and Moghedian are next-level Dreamwalkers, and Ishy has reasonable talent in that field, Rahvin and Graendal have Talent-level skill in Compulsion), but not much of anything else. They have access to the True Power, which has similarities with the One Power after a fashion, but can do some things the One Power cannot at a massive price.
There's quite a bit of exposition. And where the heck did Mat stuff those bricks?
Other than that, I think season two is fantastic. It's finally coming to it's own with characters, world building and establishing (if a slightly different) some magic rules. I'm having a blast. The casting is so blood and bloody ashes well done.
This season is much better than the first. I have also changed my mindset when viewing it. When the first season was airing I kept noticing lots of inconsistencies with how the books are presented, and would get annoyed. This season I have approached it not as a direct adaptation, but as a show inspired by the books. This has made my viewing much more pleasurable, I find myself thinking "oh interesting, that's how they are depicting it!" A lot of depictions are absolutely not how I imagined it reading the books, but it is still fun to see someone else's interpretation of the material, and I am really enjoying the ride.
I have no knowledge of books. I just thought it was quite enjoyable to watch. Acting wasn't the best but I'm sure it will improve
Acting has gotten worse. It's EP3 and they haven't figured out how to integrate Mat back into the series.
Didn't think it would get worse. That's not great
That user's the 10th dentist in this situation. Most people are saying characters are "acting their asses off" in terms of quality. Moiraine's interactions with Anvaere, Verin with everyone, Alanna with everyone... Pretty spot-on.
Rand's becoming the Rand we all love. Perrin, the same. I have a feeling we're going to see a sudden influx of Mat chapters starting with EP6 and going through the end of the season... but I'm officially team Donal as a better Mat than Barney was.
Well I'm still going to give it a watch. See how I get on thanks
Ugh, I wish they would have given the show to a competent producer.
I would say based on overall viewership and ratings, Amazon thinks they got the best producer ever (WoT is outperforming their Billion Dollar Wonder). And considering S2 has nearly crossed 90% ratings despite the Bookcloaks, seems like they've caught their stride whether you like it or not.
The show received consistently negative reviews from professional critics and fans alike. I'm glad that some people were able to enjoy it, but it wasn't good.
The show received consistently negative reviews from professional critics and fans alike
This is a true statement of literally every show that's ever been made. "Consistently" refers to the presence, not the percent. Looking at current Rotten Tomatoes rating, Wheel of Time Season 2 is holding its own handily.
The issue isn't the show having a "competent producer". The issue is that YOU don't like it. So here's an idea. Instead of being one of dozens of loud voices complaining about it, go find something else to spend your time on? This isn't Legend of the Seeker. There's no objective measure that it's not well-written or well-done. And this constant negativity is just a natural extension of seeds sown by Bookcloaks.
I was talking about season 1, not season 2. I haven't even seen season 2.
I enjoying it well enough to keep watching. I’ve found it a slight improvement over the first season, but I’ll reserve judgment til it’s finished airing. I don’t mind most of the changes made to the story so far, or at least the ones that have stood out enough from my hazy recollection of the book for me to notice, but a few have been unnecessary and have the characters acting out of character. I find rand and perrin irritating, but the other characters are fine. I agree that it is fun seeing this world brought to life and visualized. That’s been the most enjoyable part of the show for me so far.
I chafe at some of the changes from the books, but when trying to take it as its own thing I really enjoyed the second season. There are some changes that I look at and think "yeah, for the sake of making an adaptation to screen I can see why you would do that, nice." But then there are so, so many that just don't sit well with me. But putting those aside, the show is really engaging and well-made, I think.
I finished it and quite liked season 2. It made me up my rating on IMDB. But season one was understandable with all the trouble they had. I hope the show gets stronger and stronger.
S1 was garbage, and I refuse to watch S2.