this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2023
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The difference between RAW and RAI (ttrpg.network)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by jounniy@ttrpg.network to c/rpgmemes@ttrpg.network
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Edit: A lot of people say, that GWM needs a melee weapon attack, but they miss Jesses point: While GWM requires a melee attack with a heavy weapon, Sharpshooters only criteria is an attack with a ranged weapon (not a ranged weapon attack). Jesse bases his claim on the fact, that a crossbow is still a ranged weapon, even if used as an improvised weapon for melee combat. That’s why it deals 1d4(!)+20 damage. (It works with any ranged, heavy weapon btw., so Longbow qualifies too.) Of course Jesse is playing the devils advocate here and of course, no somewhat sane Walter will allow this in any campaign ever, as it’s obviously not the intention behind these feats. But you could read it that way and that’s Jesses (paperthin) point. Besides: he finds the image of a barbarian running around recklessly smashing a crossbow over everyone’s head to just be hilarious.

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[–] LopensLeftArm@sh.itjust.works 38 points 1 year ago (4 children)

GWM specifies a melee attack iirc

[–] Tarcion@sh.itjust.works 30 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The meme community hasn't read the rules

[–] Skua@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

RAR, Rules As (mis)Remembered

[–] lord_ryvan@ttrpg.network 4 points 1 year ago

RAM sounds better.

[–] drbluefall@toast.ooo 2 points 1 year ago

...has seriously no one bothered to make a WinRAR joke?

Suppose I'll just archive mine.

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 year ago

Literally every time someone posts with this Walter and Jesse meme format, it is the dumbest shit I've ever seen. It makes me lose brain cells instantly and desperately wish I had unsubbed from this community months ago

[–] yaminoEXE@ttrpg.network 2 points 1 year ago

Reading in my ttrpg? Impossible. All that matters is the dm regurgitating the rules for the players.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You’re correct. It uses “melee attack” for everything, so a crossbow would be excluded. Unless maybe you’re using the crossbow as an improvised weapon and bashing the enemy over the head with it? But then Sharpshooter wouldn’t apply, because it specifies “ranged weapon attack” and hitting someone with a melee attack wouldn’t be ranged.

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sharpshooter specifies "an attack with a ranged weapon"- so the only argument I could see against using a crossbow for bonking counting for that is if using a crossbow as a melee weapon makes it not count as a ranged weapon. That's an interpretation I disagree with, though, per the sage advice on thrown weapons and sharpshooter- if throwing a dagger isn't an attack with a ranged weapon, it implies that "ranged weapon" is inherent to the item rather than how it's used. Throwing a dagger at someone is an attack with a melee weapon, ergo hitting someone in the face with a crossbow is an attack with a ranged weapon.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your note about thrown weapons has given me a new idea on how to start an argument with my DM. Throw a dagger at someone, then watch my DM pitch a fit when I argue that I can smite because throwing the dagger is a melee weapon attack.

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 2 points 1 year ago

Far be it for me to advocate starting rules arguments, but RAW I think that works and for flavour I'll always support ways to play paladins as something other than the melee knight in shining armour

[–] jounniy@ttrpg.network 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No. Sharpshooter (as written) requires an attack with a ranged weapon. Nothing says the attack has to be ranged. I could also use a shortbow as an improvised meelee-weapon and triggers Sharshooter (I’m mostly relying on the fact that just because I’m not using it as a ranged weapon, it still is one). But Crossbow is also heavy, allowing the use of GWM.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 3 points 1 year ago

Hitting someone with a melee attack is a range of 1m!

[–] jounniy@ttrpg.network 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It is a melee attack. Jesse hits people with the crossbow in melee. Jesse does read the rules. Thank you.

[–] LopensLeftArm@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Then Sharpshooter wouldn't trigger, because that counts as an improvised weapon.

[–] jounniy@ttrpg.network 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Is smacking someone over the head with a Glock not an attack with a gun?

Is a bow no longer a ragend weapon just because I don’t use it as one?

[–] LopensLeftArm@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

Yes, it is an attack with a gun. That gun just isn't a ranged weapon for the purposes of that attack.

Yes, using a bow as a melee weapon, in 5e, absolutely ceases to become a ranged weapon while you do so.

[–] Tolookah@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

But sharp shooter doesn't specify a ranged attack... right? Right?

(My source is wikidot)

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

even on that wiki it states that you need to make a ranged weapon attack. THREE TIMES, infact the same amount GWM states that it needs a melee weapon attack.

[–] Tolookah@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm one to rule with intent, and would rule against using it, but at the same time, it does say

" Before you make an attack with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If that attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage."

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Mhm yeah, but if you attack with a ranged weapon in melee, its no longer an attack with a ranged weapon as you use it as an improvised weapon instead.

[–] Tolookah@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah, the weapon changes type depending how it's used, I'll take that.

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I won't- per Jeremy Crawford, a thrown melee weapon isn't an attack with a ranged weapon, so by the same logic a melee attack with a ranged weapon wouldn't become a melee weapon attack.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Jeremy Crawford's 'rules clarifications' are inconsistent dog shit.

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 6 points 1 year ago

Jeremy Crawford's rules are also inconsistent dog shit. That's why we're here, looking at this meme :)

[–] cerevant@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

Correct. It says an attack with a ranged weapon.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

It does specify ranged weapon attack.

[–] Nikko882@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This doesn't really work as far as I can tell, RAW or RAI. While it is the case that in theory a Melee Attack with a Heavy Ranged Weapon would satisfy both criteria, there is no weapon that can normally perform such an attack, as far as I'm aware. Using a Heavy Crossbow or a Longbow to make a Melee Attack would be attacking with an Improvised Melee Weapon, which is both not a Ranged Weapon and does not have the Heavy property, so neither Feat would be useful.

If we are being generous we could say that attacking with a Heavy Crossbow would be like a Club and a Longbow would be like a Staff, and per the Improvised Weapons rules we could use those weapon stats for our Improvised Weapon, however, note that neither of these have the Heavy property, so you would be unable to use either Feat in this case as well. (The Heavy property, particularly on Ranged Weapons, seems to be not about the weight of the weapon (an intrinsic property of the thing), but about the strength required to attack with such a weapon in it's intended manner. In this way it would make sense that neither Feat would work.)

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As far as I can see, the rule for using a ranged weapon for melee is just: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage." That says nothing about changing the traits of the weapon, nor that the weapon is treated as an improvised weapon for the purposes of the attack- the rules for improvised weapons are a seperate clause within the same paragraph. As such, I'd argue that hitting someone with the butt of your heavy crossbow is effectively an attack with a martial weapon, damage 1d4 bludgeoning, with the traits Ammunition (range 100/400), heavy, loading and two-handed- of which ammunition doesn't apply because it's not a ranged attack, and thus loading doesn't constrain multiattack (because only being able to load 1 piece of ammo per round doesn't affect the bonks per round). Per the thrown weapon rules, I'd also argue that bonking people with a crossbow would rely on the attacker's dex, because it doesn't have the finesse property and as a ranged weapon it's dex based.

[–] Nikko882@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If you look at the Ammunition Property it says "If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon", which I read as meaning your weapon is an Improvised Weapon rather than a Ranged Weapon. Although I do concede that the improvised weapons rule says that if you are using a Ranged Weapon to make a Melee Attack it will deal 1d4 damage, which I assume means that you can't use the rule that says that you can treat it like another similar weapon, which I think is odd, but ok.

(Also, if you want to be very nitpicky about it, the ammunition property says you can't make ranged attacks without loaded ammunition, but any type of attack will spend your ammunition. However, I don't think that's a fair reading, and I think the ammunition property simply does not apply, because you are using it as an Improvised Weapon and therefore none of the Properties apply.)

I suppose if you really wanted to get into the details, the rules in the Ammunition section would not apply to weapons that are Ranged Weapons, but do not have the Ammunition Property, like the Dart or Net. But I feel like it would be most reasonable to rule that these are also considered Improvised Weapons and not Ranged Weapons that deal 1d4 damage if used to make a Melee Attack. (Although the Net can not deal damage as per it's Special Property, so that doesn't really apply to it, so you would be left with the Dart, which doesn't have the Heavy Property, and thus isn't really relevant to the greater discussion here.)

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Looks like I was dead wrong here- turns out there's another JC tweet that says: "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." So bonking people with a crossbow wouldn't count for GWM because the crossbow isn't heavy when you're not shooting it

[–] Nikko882@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

So JC supports the reading that the weapon becomes an Inprovised Weapon that doesn't have any properties then. (Honestly, I feel like Improvised Weapons, along with Unarmed Attacks, could probably be on the table of weapons.)

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Good catch on the Ammunition property, I did miss that- I'm not sure if that goes for weapon traits or just proficiencies, or if it's just a reference to that particular part of the improvised weapons section which specifically calls out ranged weapons in melee.

I do want to be very nitpicky with it- that's what I'm doing here, having fun seeing what the rules technically allow rather than what they actually play like at the table XD

I kind of love the idea that the dart not having the ammunition property means it doesn't count as an improvised weapon when used in melee, because that would mean a dart is just a dagger that weighs a quarter as much and doesn't have the light property (also am I wrong to think that the dagger's thrown property does nothing, since a thrown melee weapon without the thrown property does 1d4 damage with a range of 20/60ft anyway?)

[–] Nikko882@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think if one is being nitpicky, the reading of the Ammunition Property is that it specifically calls out weapons with ammunition as being treated as Improvised Weapons (which would come with not being able to use the weapon's properties or proficiency, or at least so it seems to me), rather than redirecting you to read a different part of the rules section. It would be odd (and honestly it is a bit odd with the normal reading as well) to have two distinct properties that qualifies something to fall under the same rule (being a Ranged Weapon and having the Ammunition Property), particularly when one is always going to contain the other.

And the Thrown property on the Dart being useless only really becomes a problem if you take this very specific and nitpicky ruling to be good, which honestly mostly serves as evidence that reading the rules that way is not RAI. It seems to be the RAI intention that the Dart having the Thrown Property is to allow you to use your proficiency for the attack, which you would not be able to if you threw an Improvised Weapon (such as if you were to throw a Sickle).

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 2 points 1 year ago

That's on me, I've been playing my tavern brawler for too long and overlooked that most people don't have imrpovised weapon proficiency. It looks like using most ranged weapons in melee is maybe improvised for two reasons? Like, the ammunition property makes it improvised, but also the "ranged weapon to make a melee attack" rule makes it improvised. Which I guess lines up if you take it as Javelins being good for melee and throwing, while darts are only really good for throwing- makes sense to me, although it's weird to have the same thing said twice over (a ranged weapon is improvised, but also an ammunition traited weapon is improvised, and only ranged weapons have that trait so they're already improvised in melee)

[–] Leshoyadut@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Was with you until your final point. Per the “Ability Modifiers” section of Attack Rolls in chapter 9, making a melee weapon attack uses Strength. The only exception to this is weapons that have finesse, which the crossbow does not. And despite this being an attack with a ranged weapon, you are using it as a melee weapon attack.

[–] IggythePyro@ttrpg.network 3 points 1 year ago

Ah, my mistake there- I thought that was another one with "attack with a melee weapon". It does make more sense that crossbow bashing would be strength based tho, surprising to see the rules as written following logic XD

[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The DM omnirule applies: If it breaks the game, then no, just no. But if it merely makes the game more ridiculous without giving the DM a splitting headache or driving players away from the table, allow it.

I suspect something like this would trigger the headache clause, and if I were DM I'd probably ask the player to pick which one he would rather it apply to, but not both.

[–] Umbrias@beehaw.org 11 points 1 year ago

-10 to hit will mean this person is doing an average of 6 damage an attack across an arbitrary number of attacks. I think you'd be fine.

[–] dfc09@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My take on why this doesn't work RAW is there's a time that states "specific beats general"

When you use a crossbow as a melee weapon, it specifically belongs an improvised melee weapon for the attack, which trumps the general rule that a crossbow is ranged weapon.

I would even go so far as to say that means it doesn't qualify for GWM either.

[–] computergeek125@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's GWM?

[–] FatPigeons@ttrpg.network 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Great Weapon Master

[–] computergeek125@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Thank you much

[–] Twipped@artemis.camp 1 points 1 year ago

Theres is a bug in the current Dwarf Fortress combat AI where soldiers equipped with crossbows will only shoot targets if they can’t path to the target. If they can, they will instead prefer to run up to it and melee with the crossbow.

I believe you have found their reasoning.