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Wheel of Time

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Discussion of the Wheel of Time Books and Show.

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[Spoilers up to Book 3 and S2E7] Thoughts on finishing WoT Book 3 (lemmy.ml)

submitted 1 year ago by maegul@lemmy.ml to c/wheeloftime@lemmy.ml

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Introduction

So generally I've been pretty negative of the first two books (book 1 , book2), both as a fan of the show but also against the reputation the series has as a whole and the general interest in the world the show and the series's reputation has garnered.

I'm aware that book 4 is widely regarded as when the series actually starts or hits its stride, and aimed in my reading to at least read up to book 4. But I found books 1 and 2 to be strangely disappointing and so was curious to see how I felt about book 3. It seems, in hindsight, that books 1 and 2 are basically parts 1 and 2 of the same opening book of the series. I wouldn't be surprised if story-wise they started off as a single book in Jordan's mind, for instance. So I was curious to see how things go once Jordan was free from the opening work.

The short story is I very much liked book 3, in general and more than books 1 and 2, for about the first half. The second half and the ending though were a pretty bad let down however and, at the moment, seal my opinion that the first 3 opening books are kinda problematically "not good" for a series this long in well loved.

Positives

What worked for me was that Jordan did seem free to write within the world rather than to paint it for the reader, and that worked well for me. The women and Mat in Tar Valon and the rest in the mountains or chasing Rand ... these felt like focused and organic story and character threads where any mysteries felt looming (how good was Lanfear in tar valon!) and actions and risks felt like they had real and palpable stakes. Compared to book 2, Perin and Mat gain focus and it works well. Perin, as I'm guessing is not unique of me, is a favourite. Mat's whole luck thing, is something I'm not sure about, but it's a fun and interesting character that has been underdone so far, so getting more focus on him was good.

Egwene, Nyneave and Elayne

The three women, while I enjoyed very much the Tar Valon setting and their role in it, weren't terribly well written from a character perspective I'd say. I'm aware there's a whole "obnoxious women" opinion out there, and while I can see how some might feel that way, that wasn't my issue. I think they were simultaneously given a pile of agency that didn't quite make sense within the book, as bait going of to Tear at great risk, it seemed strangely risky all of a sudden. But then simultaneously, their characters were somewhat childish and superficial in the tension between them without any real attempts at digging into it giving the characters to a chance to work through their issues or suffer consequences. I get that the characters have growth to do and are flawed and all, but the combination of choices with the group felt somewhat crude and contrived for the broader plot. Also, that they twice were rescued without needing to be rescued was odd and I'm not sure what purpose it serves. And while being shitty to Mat is just part of the gender and character dynamics ... again, it felt superficial ... like in a situation like that I think even the most stuck up people would be relieved to see a friendly or familiar face out of nowhere trying to help them. And then, in the end, they almost played no role in the overall plot ... ?

Negatives

On which, we get to the latter half, where book 3 sadly shared a formula with books 1 and 2 to the point where much of the plot machinations just felt contrived to lead to the ending Jordan had decided on. It was somewhat strange that the women were going to Tear to trigger the trap with the Amyrlin's blessing. Maybe it's illustrative of the dangers of the Aes Sedai, but I knew Jordan wanted the characters to be split apart to then all converge onto a single location housing a special magical item where Ba'alzamon would appear out of nowhere and confront Rand in some inexplicable magic battle that Rand would "instinctively" be able to win to prove that he is the Dragon Reborn. So, the women, Rand, and then Mat (learning things by luck I guess), and of course Moraine, Perin and co chasing Rand, all deciding to head for Tear just felt cheap and manipulative by this point. While I'm guessing that in universe the Forsaken/Ba'alzamon were manipulating things toward this, the plot formula is pretty obvious by this point and just wasn't compelling reading once all the threads were in place. Generally, I suspect that Jordan, for me, is at his weakest when he feels like he needs to move people around. The obviousness of the plot mechanics being one aspect, but I suspect there's something how Jordan thinks his unveiling his rich world for the reader when for me it feels more like noise ... characters and places without much substance or "thematic momentum".

The Ending

As for the ending ... at this point I don't think I can be negative enough about it. I'm honestly a little shocked and kinda questioning if I even like fantasy. Like, how is it OK for a celebrated series to have basically the same ending in the first three (not short!) books all so that Rand can finally recognise he is the Dragon?! That Rand was hardly in the book is probably a big factor as to why enjoyed this one more ... I'm not sure Jordan knows what to do with is "chosen one" trope and generally the character is obviously a bit thin. A series just about the three women, Perin and Mat, without the chosen one and "dark one" tropes would probably be much more interesting. By this point, I think Jordan really needed to have created a character in Rand that was more fleshed out and interesting. Chosen ones are often dull plot mechanisms, but spending so much time, and ending drama, on Rand learning to accept that he is the Dragon without us the reader having any hooks into his character and its growth and how it feels from his perspective in the same way we do for Perin and Egwene and Mat, seems like a failure of the series thus far.

Like, if the series didn't have the reputation and the world weren't interesting, I'd be totally done with the series. I'm somewhat curious to see how I feel about books 4 (and maybe 5 and 6) because despite liking book 3 more it's cast way more doubt on whether I can enjoy the rest of the series ... Sorry, I just cannot get over how all three books were "Look, it's Ba'alzamon out of nowhere, quick Rand, do all the things you know how to do only when it's a climactic ending that transcends reality and the celebrated hard magic system ... we've brought everyone to this newly introduced city just to see it!!" It strikes me as odd that fans openly admit to book 1's ending being off but I've yet to see mention of the repetition of the basic pattern in the first three. I'm really not sure you easily separate them.

Favourite parts and curiosities

Lanfear in Tar Valon was awesome and gave me chills in moments. Realising that she was doing entirely as she pleased and manipulating things in the Aes Sedai stronghold was scary as hell! Like who is this person, how powerful is she and what is she actually up to! Of course the dream Perin has where he sees her loyalty to the dark being questioned only cements the mysterious wonder. I love that the show has leaned into this character so much and can see why.
Dream world (tel'aran'rhiod) is definitely interesting, and the revelation that the wolves are basically natives to it was very "cool" for lack of a better word. I'm curious to see if it's just another dimension in which things happen or if there's more to it though ... because already by this book it feels like it maybe doesn't serve an immediate purpose other than to have more magic to the world and was maybe a tad overused already? ... definitely curious to see what Jordan does with it.
So, obviously, what's up with Mat and his luck? My guesses are Shadar Logoth and the dagger have left a mark (the book explicitly hints at this IIRC). Whether this leads to luck doesn't really make sense, but broadly it would make sense that Mat's path/purpose is to somehow be the representative of the older Menethren Shadar Logoth fighting spirit against the dark which entails some curious powers given the shadow that is Shadar. Otherwise, the wheel's willing things for him in the moment and can do it better during chance events? Even during fighting? It's really unclear and in a way that is both tantalising but also annoying.
- A big and related question here is also what is the deal with Lanfear and Mat. She's obviously toying with him, but then, in disguise as Else, seemed almost spooked by him, which implies that as a manifestation of Shadar he's rather threatening to darkfriends etc.
So Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. As a show fan, this details was obviously spoiled. But also, I'm not sure how I feel about it in the book. It seemed to be an underwhelming twist and I'm not clear on what effect it was supposed to have. Is Ishamael actually dead? I would guess not really but then the book has been happily killing off forsaken and I'm probably more attached to Ishy than I should be because of the show. But then again Ishamael is in the opening prologue of EotW and has spoken of himself as recurring in the wheel like the Dragon.

The Opening Trilogy

I'm really hoping that Jordan just spent a long time in the opening trilogy building up to the setting of their being a Dragon Reborn and the story he wanted to tell from that point onward and painting his world. If true, the world has been wonderfully detailed and set up, but with stories that are problematic introductions to a series (IMO, so far).

The Show

I'm not sure how much of book 3 season 2 has tried to incorporate, but generally I've very much appreciated the portrayal of the villains. Ishamael, Lanfear and Liandrin are, IMO, so much better in the show and are informing my mental image of the books.

I think I also appreciate what they've done with Rand compared to the books. I think show Rand works much better and I appreciate the work the show has put into making that adaptation work. The toned down and more emotionally focused ending of season 1 helps a lot (as I've said before, book fans are not good show critics in their difficulty letting go and accepting an adaptation as an adaptation ... season 1 in hindsight was rather good I think). And the more direct character beats with Lanfear in season 2 have helped a lot too.

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[–] Daisyifyoudo@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think I've had the complete opposite experience as you. I watched s1, I liked it enough although I found it to be a bit teen angsty, but the world fascinated me. So between s1 and s2 I read the entire wot series and loved it.

Sometime in the middle of my reading I went back to the tv series and I couldn't make it past the first show. I appreciate the series for introducing the universe to me, but I just hated everything about it. The characters, the acting, and so many of the plot decisions the showrunners made were just incredibly perplexing.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Interesting! What were your thoughts on the book series, especially books 1-3? Also opposite to mine?

[–] Daisyifyoudo@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No, not really. The first just seemed remarkably generic. Lots of Tolkeinesque names and concepts. Wholely unremarkable. I also remember being confused as the first story felt almost like a standalone story. But I was excited and fresh off the series, and powered right through it. I don't remember having strong feelings either way about book 2 or 3 but I do agree with most everyone else that 4 and on is where the story starts to shine.

But I'll be honest, I did not dislike any of the books I read. Even though sometimes you sit through multiple paragraphs of Jordan describing the most mundane detail. But for me at least, the payoff was more than worth it. I LOVED the characters, their arcs, the universe, the entire journey, the ending. I even liked Sandersons part so much (the transition was pretty seamless, although I think I enjoyed his writing more than Jordans) that I started reading Mistborn last week.

[–] cdipierr@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While I think the criticism of the first 3 books having repetitive endings is fair, I still find the stories themselves very enjoyable. The world building, Rand's transformation from a back country sheepherder into a frightening chosen one, all of the character's development really. The links to our world, and the Age of Legends. The heavy use of foreshadowing in vision, dream, and prophecy.

It all builds up to a very nuanced fantasy tale that helps elevate the start of the series above the standard fare. Now I can't argue that in book 4 things bust wide open and the standard travelling adventure formula is firmly left behind. But The Great Hunt is still my favorite of the 14 books, just for the wild ride it sends everyone on.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well the endings are heavily colouring my opinions and experiences of the books here, with a good part of my frustration coming from enjoying other elements that feel tainted by the endings. I feel this is somewhat fair though because Jordan is clearly driving the stories toward the endings and even in universe it seems the “will of the wheel” is a big factor in the endings and how they come together.

Otherwise I’m generally with you. As I’ve said, I’m rather fond of the world.

In fact I’m getting the impression most fantasy fans would agree on a core of what’s good about WoT, but the distinction between someone liking or disliking WoT is how much they dislike or don’t dislike some elements …? It’s maybe the negatives or their absence not the positives that determine a WoT fan?

[–] cdipierr@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think the main element that matters is whether you connect with the characters, and some people just don't. Does the reader see Rand as just another chosen one, or do they enjoy the way he veers from and back to those tropes as the story progresses? Does watching the other Emond's Fielders go through their own transformation get the reader invested in them, or are their foibles and idiosyncracies a point of annoyance that pulls them out?

I mean, I think that's really the core of whether any story works, but doubly so here. You spend a lot of time with these characters, so you better like a good chunk of them.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Well I think another factor that’s perhaps even more important is do I trust the author and suspend disbelief or have they lost my trust and am I now unable to ignore their choices and artifices. This is mostly what my critiques touch on. I can like the characters but not what the author has them do in that world the author gives them.

In book 3, once I noticed everyone was going to Tear for another “ba’alzamon climax”, it didn’t really matter how much I liked the characters. Instead I saw the author and their choices. The puppet strings rather than the puppets if you will. I could tell Jordan wanted his ending and that he thought I wanted it too. What I wanted least of all was to feel manipulated into being entertained by a climactic ending that was, IMO, a poor choice from any character and plot perspective, no matter how climactic it was.

I think it’s pretty easy to forget how cinematic modern fiction is and how many directing choices are made for what happens around the character. As the page is a blank canvas with limitless options, once you can’t unsee the choices they can become pretty glaring.

In the case of books 1-3, I think Jordan submits the characters to a lot of action. My critique of book 3 is on point in this regard. I liked the first half, as I was allowed to enjoy the characters. In the second half they were being pulled along by Jordan’s urge to have his characters moving to an ending and that’s where it broke down for me.

[–] cdipierr@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Pulled along, yes. After all: The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

[–] Statlerwaldorf@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Book 3 was where I gave up on the series. I want to say that I was in my early 30s when I started the series and had many of the same problems you did with it. Friends of mine who highly recommended it had all read as teens.

There are so many good books out there that I don't have time to struggle through one I don't enjoy, much less 10.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I want to say that I was in my early 30s when I started the series

As someone also in their 30s and who's noticed fans having read it when younger I've wondered just how much the series is basically a YA series that's also rather long and detailed for those teens up to the challenge. I've tried to avoid this critique because it's fundamentally condescending to tell a fan that they like the books because they view it through teenage eyes, but the first 3 books feel very YA to me and the characters feel like they've been written down in maturity despite their in universe age. My troubles with the endings seem at odds with others views, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's just a "maturity" thing where I'm just not that interested in action packed endings to the point of finding them, as I often put it, contrived.

Interestingly, the last series I read before starting WoT was the Earthsea series, which despite being YA was, IMO, a much better and, honestly, mature reading experience. I honestly do worry that fantasy fans can mistake length and world breadth for mature/good. As far as comparing Le Guin's and Jordan's writing styles, Le Guin feels like a musician and Jordan an architect ... for me, I know which of those two fields of creativity I find more valuable and important in my world.

I'd give up at this point too, as I said, if I hadn't committed to book 4, heard good things about the series and come to rather like the world.

In reality ... there's a good chance I'll take a break from the series.

If I never finish it, I'm curious enough in the world and the story that I think I'll end up just reading through the chapter summaries at library.tarvalon.net. I've gone back to read some of them for books 1-3 and they seem like a decent substitute for someone not enjoying the writing style.

Otherwise, are you watching the show? ... why are you here if you left the series at book 3?

[–] Statlerwaldorf@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not watching the show, I just happened to be browsing All and caught your post and read your reviews. I remember being shouted down on the other site in the Fantasy and Books subs for disliking what I'd read of the series and wanted to offer my thoughts. I'm also always looking to find good recommendations. I just finished the main Malazan series this year and while it was a struggle, I felt like there were constant rewards for the struggle.

I came late to fantasy in general. I was a sci-fi kid (except for Tolkien) until after college, so I was pickier to start with. I'm middle aged now and have limited free time so I'm much more judicious with my DNF rating anymore. I've also mellowed out so I'm not about to knock anyone for liking something I don't.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I remember being shouted down on the other site in the Fantasy and Books subs for disliking what I’d read of the series

Interestingly, on here and masto, I've managed to connect with people, like yourself, who at least understand or sympathise with my thoughts. Curious insight perhaps into the value of smaller online spaces that aren't dominated by mainstream, dare I say, dogmatic or unthinking opinion.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Good luck on book 4! The first three were indeed a struggle because of "the formula", but I think Jordan really needed that time to become more confident in his own original work as opposed to the tried and true chosen one Vs dark one trope. I hope we'll see more updates along the way!

Also I am very interested in how the show will adapt starting from the book 4. So far I'm not against them condensing characters and plot lines that felt too contrived and/or unnecessary in the books. I hope that after the show is done with "the opening", we will get a bit closer to the books, because Light knows there's enough iconic moments and characters to bring to the screen.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The first three were indeed a struggle because of “the formula”,

Thanks for saying this. Maybe I just haven't heard/read enough about what to expect, but I think part of my struggle was not being told that the first 3 were arguably all shaky. I'd heard about the first but only relatively good things about books 2 and 3, and so I'm a little frustrated. If I'd been told that the series really hits its stride in book 4 and the first 3 will be hit or miss depending on your tastes as Jordan was finding his feet I would have been totally happy and been able to focus on the positives. I'm a Trek fan and everyone knows it takes 3 seasons for a Trek series to work itself out!

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

For me personally, 2 and 3 felt more mid than bad, but I also wasn't reading as much fantasy back when I started the Wheel of Time, so the "formula" was relatively fresh to me and even book 1 was a pretty enjoyable read overall.

Book 4, in my opinion, is where Jordan abandons the attempts to shoehorn his world into the Pattern (haha) he's used to, and just lets it grow the way it's best for itself. There will be way less feeling that the character X is heading to the place Y just because the story demands it, that I can say.

[–] BadAdvice@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You are more persistent than I am. I can't remember how many times I've picked up and put down the eye of the world without ever managing to get through it. I think I get to some river scene and just can't hack it anymore. Mat drives me up a wall by not just being entirely useless but often times actively harmful to the goals of the group as a whole. Further, while I appreciate worldbuilding that shows instead of tells (the scene with the bug bear guy stands out), the character interactions are often painfully weak with childish bickering dominating any sort of meaningful character development, especially within the main quintet of young characters. I am disheartened to know that the next two books don't do much better.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My take away so far is that WoT fans happily say that book 1 is relatively weak when in reality the first 3 books are relatively weak or at least all bound together as the shaky opening to the series.

I don't know if the series changes dramatically from book 4 onwards, but that's the impression I've gotten. And, if true, it's a bit of a shame, because I think the fandom could do with being open about the first 3 books more. The criticism from fans of the show, for instance, feels to me totally misplaced and misunderstanding the challenge of adapting these books into compelling TV.

[–] BadAdvice@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

As a guy who was introduced to the Deesden Files through the syfy TV show I think I can say a bit about experiencing a weak opening. Honestly Storm Front isn't even that bad. It accomplishes its goal of establishing a fantasy nior in urban Chicago, but the fans universally hold it as the weakest in the series. The first three are seen as being weaker as a whole when compared to the series overall. Oddly similar when you look at it laid out like that.