It’s great you are looking out for your friend’s well-being, at the same time unless they are causing harm to themself or others I think it can come across as insensitive to try and tell them their spiritual beliefs are “wrong” even if they seem new or unusual. Would you stop a friend from praying even if they think that it’s a literal attempt to get a higher power to intervene on their behalf? Is casting a spell really that much different?
this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2023
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Thank you for this perspective I hadn't considered. No harm is being done as far as I know, to himself or others. He does have a history of self harm but he's beyond that now, and is thankfully in a much better place emotionally.
I believe in science, I also practice witchcraft. Do I think anything I'm gonna make is going to help me? I mean, yeah due to legit science. But I also know when to go to a real doctor. Do I think runes and tarot cards can tell me the future? Not necessarily but I view it as more of a, it's already in my head it's just helping me spell it out type of thing.
I have no idea your age but, a lot of people dabble in witchcraft in their teens and early 20s and never come back to it. If I did my math right I've been practicing for 16 years. I've never used it as an excuse to not get mental health help, I've never used it as an excuse to not go to a doctor, and I've never forced my beliefs on others (which is more than some people in some religions can say).
I'm not saying your friend won't use religion as an excuse to not do normal things but, I think you should take some time to look at things from another perspective. It's really not much different than those who believe in an all powerful sky daddy. Not only that but, witchcraft can be secular as well.
I think you are mistaking my initial disdain with his decision to explore witchcraft. It isn't about believing in science, I don't think I mention science once in my post but I see how it can be mistaken since I mention I come from an academic background. I have no qualms with practicing witchcraft and actually would like to participate myself, all knowing that it is just for leisure and entertainment, and it isn't harmful. Similar to how playing a Ouija board might be. Others may believe there are actual beings controlling the position of the planchette, but we know that isn't true.
My initial issue was him using this newfound interest to fall into delusion and have more mental health issues by ignoring the reality around him. His biggest issue with my challenge of these beliefs came when I told him to talk to his therapist about this. I wasn't trying to force my beliefs on him because I don't have any beliefs regarding it, although that might've been what I did since a lack of belief is a belief itself. I've apologised and we're okay now, I hope. It does not seem like this is harmful so I'll be supportive of this, just as I've been supportive of his other personal troubles.
Neither of us are in our teens or early twenties.
His last message to me was him asking me to stop and that anyone has a right to believe what they want.
I am starting to believe this is the best way forward. I care for N and his health, but this is ultimately out of my control.
Caring doesn't give you a right to exceed others' specifically stated boundaries.
You are correct, although the tone of your reply doesn't sound very friendly but more condescending. That was his last reply to me because I didn't reply after, instead I sought advice here. No boundaries were crossed. I apologised and let him know I would be there if he wanted to share with me, we're on good terms.
I don't think it's meant to be condescending, just something to keep in mind when it comes to discussing belief systems. It's good that you respected your friends boundaries, but it's not an out of place assumption to think you may have without additional information, given how people who look down on non-standard belief systems tend to act, especially those that would try to invalidate what they believe in.
I'm somewhat curious if your academic stance against witchcraft and the negative mental effects extends out to 'normal' beliefs. If not, what is it specifically about witchcraft that makes you feel that it will have negative effects on their mental health? It sounds like you may just not be knowledgeable about it, so it may help you (and your friendship) to take an open and academic view and educate yourself on the stuff your friend believes. At worst, you'll gain knowledge on another belief system and have a deeper understanding of something that was foreign to you.
In the end, much like the other posters have said, let them believe what they want so long as they're not hurting themselves* or others. Believing in the make believe is something we all do to one extent or another, and I feel that my gods are no better or real than any others' - it's all just a crutch we use to get through the day.
*I have a much looser definition of hurting yourself than others would, and don't consider much short of permanent lasting effects as hurting ones self
It sounds like you may just not be knowledgeable about it, so it may help you (and your friendship) to take an open and academic view and educate yourself on the stuff your friend believes.
Absolutely! I know very little about it and expressed interesting in being educated on the topic. I have no problem with witchcraft in itself. I would not be against participating but I told him that it would be, of course, for leisure and entertainment. My issue was him taking this into delusion, which is why I told him it to talk to his therapist about this interest. This is where his biggest issue with my statements came from. He's been through a lot. He's currently transitioning from F to M and it's been putting him through a lot of stress right now too, so I don't want to him to bear more from what circumstance it may bring from the prejudice around this. Sadly enough, I think that's what I did with my initial reaction so I made a big mistake in handling this situation.
I have no problem with witchcraft in itself. I would not be against participating but I told him that it would be, of course, for leisure and entertainment. My issue was him taking this into delusion, which is why I told him it to talk to his therapist about this interest.
I can see why he was offended when you phrase it like that, that seems like you're trying to belittle their beliefs. Imagine you were finding something that really spoke to you and helped you through a dark part of your life, and a friend said it was a delusion and would only participate as an amusement.
I don't want to him to bear more from what circumstance it may bring from the prejudice around this. Sadly enough, I think that's what I did with my initial reaction so I made a big mistake in handling this situation.
You absolutely did, but at least you're emotionally mature enough to see it.
Regardless of how you feel about it, id apologize to them and see if you can try to redo that conversation and at least try to pretend about caring about doing it, or at least let them know that you'll do it without any of the intellectual judgement you showed before. Might go a long way to showing your friend that you really care about them, and will go a long way to try to help them overcome the inevitable pushback they get from less open minded individuals.
@Valhaitham i mean, would you be asking this if the friend were exploring christianity or islam? because they all have the same basis in reality. if your friend isn't hurting people, what do you care?
Absolutely yes. There are parts of those religions that can be prejudiced and hurtful so I would challenge a friend that would fall into them. Of course, if no harm is being done I would be supportive, which is the new position I've taken from the advice here. I recognize there are also benefits from practicing an organized religion for a person that might need it.
It's a religious belief like any other. Unless you have a habit of antagonizing friends/family over their religious beliefs, it's best to just drop it, or talk to them about why they believe it and actually take an interest in their beliefs, rather than just assuming you're right and pushing your beliefs onto others.
This is what I did. I apologized for trying to impose by beliefs (or lack thereof) and showed interest in learning about it if he wanted to share. Thank you.
yup. though this sorta thing does border on "when, if ever, is it okay to intervene?" for example, if someone was joining a suicide cult is it okay to impose? but I think in this case even if you see it as just a superstition, lighting some candles and saying some stuff to yourself isn't actually hurting anyone.
Plus neopaganism is harmless, especially compared to what the Christian and Catholic churches became since becoming a dominant religion.
As long as no harm is done, why worry? If it does venture into harmful territory, Street Epistemology (SE) might be a good approach, not necessarily to change his mind on the subject (which is not necessarily the goal of SE), but to help him examine his reasons for his belief.
Anthony Magnabosco on youtube has some great videos on SE, if you're interested in the topic.
I'll look into this, thank you! For now I will be supportive as long as no harm is being done, as others have advised.
Be supportive.
I have plenty of friends that believe in auras and zodiac and tarot. I know it's fucking bullshit, but my friends find comfort in it, and so it's not my place to sour their experience. It's something they need.
Science can't explain some really important things, like life after death. So people will search for other answers and that's OK. Just be supportive
I practice witchcraft, and while there are a few branches that lead to woo-woo I don't see how it's incompatible with science. The existence of the divine is not something that can be proven or disproven, and even if deities are thought constructs they can still provide some insight and comfort. This could actually be GOOD for your friend's mental health, as it was for mine. I was raised in a traditional Christian environment, and witchcraft helped me shed some of the fear, guilt and self-hatred that resulted from that in a way that simply trying to discard the beliefs would not have.
I'm going to push back on this a bit.
No, you can't disprove the existence of deity, because you can't technically disprove anything. On the other hand, there's no evidence that points to a divine that couldn't be more easily explained by some other mechanism. This gets into Occam's Razor territory; the lack of deity is more likely than the existence of deity, simply because it's an answer that requires the least unsupported, new evidence to arrive at.
OTOH, I think that people have evolved in such a way that beliefs like this are easy to fall into, and are comforting in a deeply instinctual way, even if they aren't factually correct. We are biological organisms, and our biological nature makes it impossible for us to perceive the universe as it 'really' is, but only through the lens of our own existence. We're biologically programmed, through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, to see things and patterns that aren't there, since missing patterns that are there is more likely to get us killed. Thus, religion.
Fair enough.
Thing is, there is nothing to suggest that individual spirituality is bad for mental health. On the contrary, it's often something that balances a person. I can't argue that Big-R religion is always a positive, because we all know what organized churches and cults end up doing, but some people are inclined to put their faith in bad actors and manipulators outside the church too. With witchcraft, you're your own priest at least so it's not like this guy is falling into a cult. He's exploring some ideas that a lot of people have found helpful.
I think by trying to prove or disprove supernatural stuff, you're completely missing the point of how witchcraft can help your friend.
All forms of magic require discipline and consistency. Almost all schools of thought will have you meditate on the daily, cut down on toxic habits, exercise, eat healthy etc... Even as a hobby it is pretty strict and requires some focus which is never a bad thing especially for people with mental health issues.
The existence or non-existence of deities and spirits and fairies is immaterial to the benefits of the "Great Work" in all of its form. You have people with a 100% neurological psycho-social interpretation of ritualistics. You have people who 100% believe they are talking to their Holy Guardian Angel. All benefit equally. Hell, in the 70s you even had acidheads who communicated with Cthulhu or Elrond ! It's all flavouring and very much not the point of witchcraft.
Right, I'm not arguing that belief is inherently bad, per se. I think that the external structure of a religion can provide a lot of direct, tangible benefits that can't be readily had in other ways.
On the other hand, a sincere belief in supernatural effects is not something that can be supported by the existing evidence.
The existence of the divine is not something that can be proven or disproven.
I am sorry for being blunt, but this is nonsensical. The existence of the divine would be absolutely trivial to prove if it existed. Break any well understood law of physics under rigorous observation and you will have international attention and change the way we view the world. Strangely enough, nobody has been able to demonstrate that yet.
And you don't need to disprove something that has not been proven. Burden of proof is a very basic scientific concept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot is an old commonly used analogy to provide some perspective on this topic.
The guy above handled this better.
There are many religions in the world. Just treat it like any other religion. Unless he is using it as an excuse to be a bigot I do not see any problem with it. I think the best way forward is to just stop and let him be.
This is good advice, thank you. He is not a bigot at all, I only worry for his mental health but as a friend I can choose to be supportive if no harm is done.
If you believe in the scientific method, then you know that trying to coerce a change of opinion is a bad thing. Just let your friend be, if they ask you any questions respond with your honest opinion, but don't try to force them to reevaluate their beliefs if they don't want to have that conversation. Imagine how peeved you would be if the tables were reversed and they kept nagging you to trade in your smartphone for a scrying stone.
I both agree and disagree with you. Almost all of the points you make are valid; but would you be making them if your friend got heavy into being a Protestant? If you can replace the word “Witchcraft” with any other religion, and you’d do the same thing, then I support you.
We like to think that we are perfect beings that don't believe any BS because we're skeptical about "the supernatural world" or what have you. But ultimately, we are not too different from your friend. Lacan has the idea of the "Real". It's the abyss of reality which we construct our whole psyche to escape from. Reality is so soul crushing and destructive that we need to creat symbols and images in order to protect ourselves from it and create a personal narrative that lets us navigate the world.
Your friend is going with witchcraft - but secular evidence based scientists aren't fundamentally different. Our beliefs in money, democracy, borders are more or less all collective delusions that we agree to maintain. We have a fixed idea of who we are - our sense of self - which in reality is a fragmented mess. Our scientific models of reality are simplified frameworks for which to view reality - if we look at the Newtonian model of physics it works perfectly fine for us to do a lot of useful things. But ultimately it's a flawed framework. It doesn't accurately represent reality.
It's impossible to accurately represent reality. We can only try to get closer, and many times that doesn't get us any closer at all. Just a different type of wrong.
So we go back to your friend, toying around with beliefs that are obviously false to me or you. Is it harmful? It is adaptive? It really depends. Unless he's doing things that are going to harm him or others (starts sacrificing sheep or something) then I say let him do it. He's really just building a framework in an attempt to understand / bare reality.
While cars are real, the price of the dollar is what we believe it should be. Willpower alone can change what the dollar is worth. I cannot eat the dollar, the dollar has no function other than a representation of worth. And worth is also something that is subjective.
Secular evidence based science is closest to reality only if you accept secular as not attached to religion and not the Soviet "religion is active brain rot".
A square will exist without us, your gods will not.
If you assume religion is true and work backwards you will get non replicatable answers.
Let’s not compare an invention (ie money/borders) to something completely made up that has no basis in reality.
Just because money isn’t in nature and we invented it doesn’t mean it’s a societal delusion that we simply accept. You could say the same for cars and bikes and planes and video games. Literally everything fabricated is “a fake delusion”.
Democracy is closer to what you’re saying but still not right.
You have to compare a belief to a belief. You can compare religions and other philosophies using your logic but shouldn’t bring in real things cause it falls apart.
Just because money isn’t in nature and we invented it doesn’t mean it’s a societal delusion that we simply accept
the only reason a piece of paper or a pixel on a screen has any value to trade for goods and services is because we collectively agree that it has value
the belief creates the system. it's an ideology, a religion. is it a useful construct? absolutely.
the point is that our existence is full of these beliefs. it's a prerequisite for being a human that can interact with the world. we need these constructs otherwise the Real would not make sense and we would essentially be monkeys
I can repeatedly use money to buy things with a 100% success rate, which is a bit higher than praying.
Yes, faith in the current value of money is what gives it the current value, but money as a thing does not require faith to see it working as a way to make trade easier than barter.
Faith can be a positive thing, but it is the opposite of something that literally exists and people interact with every day.
Yes, you can use money to buy things, and it works consistently. But let us not forget that beneath this seeming functionality, money is nothing more than a piece of paper or a digital representation. Its value is not inherent but a construct, a Symbolic order as Lacan would say, imbued by our collective belief and trust in the system.
Just like how the Lacanian 'big Other' is a social construct that regulates our social reality, money too is a sort of 'big Other' - a shared illusion that maintains its power as long as we continue to believe in it. It's not about the physical money itself, but the social contract it represents.
In the same way, religious and philosophical beliefs, such as our friend's belief in witchcraft, are also part of the Symbolic order. They are systems of understanding and interacting with the world, constructed from collective agreement, belief, and faith. These belief systems may not align with empirical reality as we understand it, but that does not diminish their power to shape individual behavior and interaction.
So, if we are to follow Zizek's line of thought, all ideologies - money, science, witchcraft - are like the glasses we wear to view the world. They are the fantasies we construct to veil the unbearable Real. As Zizek famously said, "We feel free because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom."
The lenses may vary from person to person, but all serve to mediate our experience of the world and give it meaning. Our friend's belief in witchcraft is just another lens, another narrative to make sense of the chaos of existence. We may not agree with it, but it's crucial to remember that the 'Real' itself is inaccessible - all we have are interpretations and narratives. In that sense, his belief system is not fundamentally different from our trust in the value of money or the validity of scientific models.
Your concerns have described my concerns with nearly all religions. Just be there for them.
It's nice that you're protective of your friend, but could it be you're maybe overreacting a bit? I've dabbled in witchcraft myself in the past and I don't believe it's real, but it's nice to have something to believe in. I've also struggled with my mental health and witchcraft worked as a coping mechanism for me at times. It was comforting. Maybe it's the same for them?
Talk to him about how you feel about him being into witchcraft.
"N has a history of mental health issues and was in a deeply abusive relationship for a few years which cause him a lot of grief."
Choosing to genuinely believe in superstitions seems to be a common coping tactic for people who have experienced extreme mental distress. It is not your place to try and "heal" them, they are probably in the process of healing themselves. That is what therapists are for, to help them heal themselves. So it is great that your friend is in therapy, it looks like they are on top of things for now.
"believing in witchcraft does not make it real it wasn't healthy to believe otherwise"
But this is not necessarily unhealthy though. It can be unhealthy for some people, but not everyone. It is really a case-by-case kind of thing, and it was a little presumptuous of you to say that, which is probably why they got upset with you. For some people, tempered belief in superstition might be a natural part of their healing process.
Of course, things can still go bad, but you can keep an eye out for any behavior that might be harmful toward themselves or others without being rude. If they do (not believe, but actually do) things you think might be harmful, speak up and address that specific behavior, not their beliefs.
And, being another person to hang out with outside of their new circle of witchcraft friends could help keep them grounded, as long as you have things to do that you both find fun together that are not related to witchcraft.
If I were in your place, I would be honest that I don't find witchcraft to be interesting or helpful for me personally, but but I feel happy for them that their spiritual journey seems to be helpful for them, and that their well-being is the most important thing for me.
Be honest and supportive, keep trying to have fun as friends together.
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