this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2023
71 points (89.9% liked)

Europe

8484 readers
1 users here now

News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί

(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, πŸ‡©πŸ‡ͺ ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures

Rules

(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)

  1. Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
  2. No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
  3. No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.

Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
all 45 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 63 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

I realize I'm bringing a bunch of down votes on myself with the following text, that's ok because I'm still trying to form an opinion on this topic for me.

I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they're Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.

Perhaps I was misunderstanding the word, so I checked the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism and there it's not super clear either, but then I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism it appears that I indeed was wrong and that New-Antisemitism seems to be any criticism of the Israeli government.

In this case I'm with the critics which say:

Critics of the concept argue that it is used in practice to silence political debate and freedom of speech regarding the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and that it trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, by conflating political anti-Zionism and criticism of the Israeli government with racism, condoning violence against Jews, or the Holocaust. Further critical arguments include the inclusion of race within legitimate criticism of Israel to be too narrow.

When it comes to racism it's pretty clear that you can criticize someone for what they do without being racist, but not criticize them for what they are, because then you're racist. On the other hand somehow criticizing a government for their actions which just so happens to be a government which governs a lot of Jews seems to be automatic antisemitism, even though the same criticism applied on other governments seems to not be seen as problematic.

On top of the whole thing I'm also German and in Germany this phenomenon seems to be much more extrem compared to other countries. I understand that this is because of the German guilt.

[–] kabukimeow@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There are anti-zionists who are also antisemites, but anti-zionism isn't antisemitism itself. Try to have a nuanced conversation about such a heated topic... Lately i've been seeing people just straight up deny antisemitic anti-zionists even exists. And obviously the people who think they are the same thing. It's like people are suddenly unable to understand the concept of venn diagrams.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

The problem is at least in Germany that the nuance is literally banned by the government. Demonstrations in support of the Palestinian victims of Israels attacks and blockade are getting banned in fear of antisemitism. Educational entities proclaim that criticism of the shape of the Israeli state are considered antisemitism as much as demands to give back the land of the displaced Palestinians, as these are considered "attacks on the existential right of Israel".

I tried to find that term and it doesn't seem to exist in the english languaged discourse. Also i couldn't find anything that actually gives specific states a specific right to exist. People have the right to exist and be sovereign, but this is not tied to any specific state. And from my understanding the sovereignity of one people cannot be used as a reason to take away the sovereignity of another people.

[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

The people who proudly claim themselves "anti-zionist" IRL are almost always anti-semites if you scratch the surface. Not because anti-zionism is inherently so, but because the term has become a dog-whistle for "I watched too many conspiracy youtube videos".

Also it's a weirdly religiously charged word to use; we don't use a specific word for Russia's goals for Ukraine or China's goals for Tibet or Taiwan. So of course the use of a religiously charged word begets accusations of religious persecution.

"I am against Israel's apartheid state and illegal colonization of the West Bank" -> perfectly sane take
"I am anti-zionist" -> oh my god what kind of cookadoodledoo rant is this motherfucker about to get into

So yeah, I'd stay clear of "zionism" as a concept entirely. While it is an integral part of the history of Israel, it is not necessary to understand that to criticize Israel's actions in the 21st century. And if you're going to pull put the "but the zionists" card, you better know about domestic Israeli politics a lot better than I do (which if you don't have a reasonable reason to do so like being Israeli, is again a red flag for an obsession with "the jews").

[–] Theobroma@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've been banned from the /de Subreddit for pointing that out as well.

[–] kabukimeow@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I was in germany last week and was quite surprised to see all the israeli flags around. But from a historical perpective i do get it

[–] Unsaved5831@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Germany is prone to dogmatism. There is a culture of putting things in boxes of right or wrong and then signaling it. Besides, skipping to judgement is easier than trying to unravel complications and risking being questioned in a hot seat. Spirit of being risk-averse.

[–] bedrooms@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

New antisemitism is not antisemitism. New -ism often means -ism on steroids.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My guy they are quite the textbook example of antisemites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

[–] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I just wonder what part of my text made you think I'm talking about Hamas.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they're Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ". What else was that supposed to mean?

[–] Killing_Spark@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"I always was under the impression that Antisemitism is when someone is against Jews because they’re Jews, basically like racism but against specifically Jews. But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly ". What else was that supposed to mean?

But lately I see the word Antisemitism used very lightly basically if someone is dissatisfied with the actions of the state Israel then they are called Antisemitic.

Not OP but: I mean if you bothered to read the sentence you quoted to the end you'd have your question answered

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And what is that supposed to mean? Hamas is antisemitic. The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.

[–] Killing_Spark@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

The place where he sees people using the word antisemite is the same place where the Hamas is being called out.

No. This is your assumption from your limited bubble. In his limited bubble there might be people calling legitimate israel critique antisemitic. You just hopped in this thread and claimed they were talking about Hamas apologetics.

[–] StinkyRedMan@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It means that now you can't criticise Israel actions without being called an antisemite, even tho you don't care about them being jews.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

By whom? I only ever see people crying about this. Never seen a person being called antisemite when they werent. Only Tankies and edgy contrarians.

[–] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

ADL lost a lot of credibility after saying that the overwhelming majority of the Jewish community supports Palestinian genocide.

[–] letmesleep@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

Which genocide?

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is nothing more anti-semitic than Zionists using the good Jewish name to shield them against criticism of the genocide they are committing.

Israel is like the ISIS for Jews. Dragging their name through the mud while doing things that are completely against their book.

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

One significant difference, though, is that you can't blame a jewish Israeli for being born in Israel. In that sense they're much different than the Western muslims who moved to ISIS territory.

Maybe Israel shouldn't have existed in 1948, but we have to deal with the fact that it does.

That does of course not excuse West Bank colonialism and apartheid. But if I had a workable solution to that I'd not be writing Lemmy comments on the shitter.

[–] vsh@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Israel is not a real country. And no matter how many "holy" books mention it, it's not supposed to exist.

[–] Apollo@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

Yeah but that's not how any of this works lol

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You would have to define what a real country is, and how it is not the same as the geopolitical status quo of Israel. By any useful contemporary definition Israel is a country.

Claims in religious texts don't mean anything if you cannot independently verify them. What matters is what people (with some power) believe, and a lot of people do believe it does and ought to exist. Enough for it to exist anyway.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

israel is not a country it's an American military base. If the only people who recognize a colony as a "country" are other countries that are halfway across the globe it's not a country.

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. The majority of countries on earth are former colonies whose borders were drawn up by Europeans thousands of kilometers away. Not only that, Israel is a self governing geopolitical entity that has formal relations with the majority of countries in the world and can defend itself fairly well.

The US is a country despite the fact that the colonisation of North America was a net wrong.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The majority of those countries you speak of recognize eachother. israel is an out of control American military base that abuses the name of the Jewish people to justify their war crimes.

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I get that country/state is a loose concept, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

The existence of foreign military bases and whether a political entity has committed war crimes are not typically considered in most accepted definitions of statehood. 85% of the countries on earth, literally a majority, recognize Israel. Going by for instance the criteria of the Montevideo Convention (permanent population, defined territory, government, capacity to have international relations) only the defined territory is debatable.

The thing with geopolitics is that international laws are more like guidelines. If a political entity can afford to exist through whatever means, and if it ticks most of the boxes of what we generally consider to be true of statehood, it is a country/state for all practical purposes.

[–] vsh@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Good. One day they'll realize Zionists are hiding their violence behind their religion.