Everyone sort of figured he would once he won his rigged elections again. Gods I hope we don’t let him join the EU.
this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2023
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Huge democratic deficit and do they really follow European customs and values?
"European customs and values" is a bit hard to define I feel. The eastern European states are quite different from the rest. Poland and Sweden are in stark contrast to one another, as is even Sweden and Germany.
I'd like to say that the EU is quite strongly in favour of democracies, which Turkey definitely isn't. I've a dear friend who basically didn't dare discuss politics because of the potential fallout that could have on his job and living situation. He's since moved away from Turkey and his life has improved dramatically.
It's difficult for me as a Swede to reconcile the fact that speaking out against the state could land me in hot water. Like I can call our PM a bag of dicks, and make poop-caricatures of any parliament member all day if I wanted to, and it wouldn't necessarily have any fallout beyond burning some bridges with people.
Turkey's also heavily religious conservative, and as a gay person that doesn't sit well with me. That extends to all currently-in-the-EU countries that match that description as well, though.
I think you touched on the main aspects where things are different. Although, yes, there are many cultural differences across Europe as well (and I see that as a strength) they don’t run as deep. I would add my worry about their treatment of the Kurd minority. To be fair, however, things do change over the years, and there are a couple more countries that have turned for the worse, IMO.
Oh yeah, the treatment of the Kurds is harrowing. During the early days of Sweden's bid for NATO, Turkey asked for a lot. They gave us lists of people to be extradited, and even made requests for our constitution to be changed to accommodate this. Basically extortion.
Needless to say, Turkey (and Hungary) hasn't exactly garnered a lot of goodwill here in Sweden lately. A part of me is even a bit bummed out about the NATO thing, because the idea of allying with Turkey, and potentially having to deploy troops to defend them should it come to that, doesn't sit well with me.
the idea of allying with Turkey, and potentially having to deploy troops to defend them should it come to that, doesn’t sit well with me.
That a good thing which comes from a larger coalition. The more countries involved that won't attack each other, and the more counties that will aid other countries in the coalition if needed, the less likely there is a need to raise those defenses. I'm glad to see Finland and Sweden joining, not because of the troops and resources they might commit, but because it improves everyone's self sovereignty, including those nations which aren't full members.
Quite the shock when Erdogan tried to blackmail his country into the EU. I hope Sweden will also not give in when it comes to burning religious books.
I would say there is a huge difference in culture and values when comparing to those people from Turkey who are very conservative or religious. We even have some here who voted in Germany for Erdogan!
But the difference isn't that big with secular, non-conservative people. It is like Turkey has two sides.
It's not even about customs or abstract values in general. Some of the past and present aspirants or aspirants in spe seem to see only the economic side of things, while considering the legally binding parts of the treaty like the European Convention on Human Rights or the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union more like an optional thing.
Quite the shock when Erdogan tried to blackmail his country into the EU. I hope Sweden will also not give in when it comes to burning religious books.
I would say there is a huge difference in culture and values when comparing to those people from Turkey who are very conservative or religious. We even have some here who voted in Germany for Erdogan!
But the difference isn’t that big with secular, non-conservative people. It is like Turkey has two sides.
European values are irrelevant for being a NATO member. But I believe being a democracy is a requirement, but USA is a somewhat flawed democracy too. But hen again no democracy is perfect.
Isn’t abolishing the death penalty part of the requirements? And there’s some more that makes it simply unrealistic to think it’s happening in the next decade or two.
It's like a 30 point check list and so far they've completed zero or maybe one. It's a long way.
Erdogan reinstated the death penalty at the coup, so basically he has moved away from EU membership since taking control.
I think it's a good thing that it is a long process, even if people moan about Ukraine not getting a shortcut. Imagine if Turkey had completed the membership before the coup. That would have been horrible today. Similarly it would be unwise to allow Ukraine in right now, since we have no idea of what will happen after the war. A dictator could potentially take the power there too. The requirements aren't just bureaucracy, they do serve a purpose.
Personally I hope that they both succeed eventually, but it has to be done properly. Both Ukraine and Turkey could contribute positively to EU if only they manage to get proper democratic governments and follow human rights etc. first.
Also LGBT rights
You can't fool us Erdogan, we've seen this move before.
By tomorrow he'll have new demands. He'll demand Sweden form a space agency and plant the Turkish flag on the moon or something like that, mark my words.
Yes yes I signed it just need to find my stamps to put it in the mail. Just one more thing it is very important please can you arrange to hold the Eurovision in Ankara next year instead?
lmao, thought it was a joke.
Wait it isn't?
like with hungary, i'll believe that when i'll see signed papers
You're wise to his and Orban's ways.
Long overdue
Lol wow. Erdogan was singing a very different tune less than 8 hours ago. I’d guess that some very pointed threats around security guarantees and future arms sales were made by the rest of the alliance for him to do an about-face that quickly.
I can't imagine he's someone to strongarm. Nor would it be good for the alliance if members are forced into accepting things they don't want.
I'd imagine he got his desired concessions, or it was mostly just bluster for internal politics.
I think the US delegation took him aside and said something along the lines of “alright chucklefuck, going forward, if you want parts and technical support for any of the massive amounts of extremely advanced military shit we’ve sold you for decades, you’re going to stop fucking around on the Sweden accession”.
Yeahhh that's not how diplomacy works. That's how edgy high school kids would imagine running NATO.
If the goal was to extract concessions, then any actual opposition to it was nothing more than pantomime and theatre. Presumably he finagled a deal he's happy with.
Now Hungary is a different beast, since Orban has recently been much more warm and cuddly with Putin than Turkey has, but perhaps with Turkey acceding to the arrangement they'll play some follow-the-fascist-leader and fall in line.
Hungary is also dependent on EU money, Turkey is not.
As a Dane, I'd like to welcome our old brothers in arms! Scandinavia is whole!!
So I guess Turkey is getting some shiny new F16s?
Putin is bad at chess.
Good for Erdogan. I don't say that often.
Great news!
Hopefully Hungary follows suit quickly
They have said they won't block it if Turkey agrees to allow Sweden to join. But it remains to be seen now.
Sweden right now -
Apparently his price is for the EU to allow Turkey to join…
The price is for Sweden to push for talks to be brought up again. That is not the same thing as letting Turkey join the EU. Though it should also be said the Swedish prime minister said no new terms have been agreed since November.
Won’t happen, not with the whole Hungary mess and the rise of the political far-right going on. No government would risk political suicide and the end of the Union for Sweden’s NATO membership.
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