this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2023
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[–] Canadian_Cabinet@lemmy.ca 126 points 1 year ago (13 children)

Unirronically I agree with this. I still have yet to see a use case of ray tracing that makes it worth the 50% hit in fps.

[–] schema@lemmy.world 61 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

A lot of the implications for ray tracing are on the dev-side of things. It's a bit hard to explain without going into technical details.

Essentially, getting light to look "right" is very very hard. To do it, devs employ a lot of different techniques. One of those older techniques is baking the light on static objects, essentially pre-rendering where light goes and how it bounces. This has been done for a long time, e.g. even in Half-Life, the lights are baked for static geometry. So in a way, we have been using ray-tracing in games for a long time. however, it isn't real time ray-tracing, as the information gets stored in light map textures, so there is no performance impact other than storing the texture in RAM/VRAM and drawing the texture together with others.

The inherit problem of that technique is that it only really works for static geometry. If you move your light or any objects in the scene, your lightmaps will no longer match. To solve this, there are mixed modes which use real-time lights, dynamic light maps, and other tricks. However, these are often subject to problems and/or the limitations of using real-time lights. Real-time light problems are: You can only do a limited number before getting a serious performance impact, especially if the lights produce shadows. Soft shadows, shadows in big areas, and very detailed shadows are extremely hard to do as well without some advanced tricks. Also, ambient occlusion and global illumination is not something you can just give lights (there is screen-space GI and AO, but they don't look good in all circumstances, and you have limited control. There are also some other techniques some engines did for real time GI.).

Also there is the problem of baked light affecting dynamic objects, such as characters. This has been solved by baking so called "light probes". These are invisible spheres that store the light data and the closest data then gets applied to the characters and other dynamic objects. This again has a some problem, as it's hard to apply multiple light probes to the same object, so lighting might be off. Also, light direction is not accurate, which causes normal maps to look very flat in this light, and local shadows do not work using light probes. The same is done for reflections using reflection probes which are static. These are 360° "screen shots" essentially storing the reflection at that point in space. This however costs DiskSpace/RAM/VRAM, and it will not hold any information for moving objects (that's why sometimes you can't see yourself in the mirror in games). Also, the reflections sometimes look "out of place" or distorted when the reflection probe is too far from the reflecting surface (again, these cost VRAM and RAM so you don't want to place them in front of every single reflective surface). It costs a lot of time to find the right balance. For the rest, usually screen space reflections are used, as any other real-time reflection is extremely costly as you essentially render the whole scene again for each local reflection. Screen space reflection is an advanced technique that works very well for stuff like reflective floors, but you will quickly see its downsides on very mirrored surfaces as it lacks information that is not on the screen. Some games like Hitman for example use the mix of those techniques extremely well.

Coming back to lighting, there are now better techniques used for example by unreal and some other engines (and now unity in experimental). The light gets stored in more predictable data structures, such as 3d textures. This way, you can store the direction of all light in each cell. The light then gets applied to the objects passing through those cells. This looks pretty good, and the runtime cost is fairly low, but the storage cost of such textures is a tradeoff of texture resolution and fidelity. These textures cost a lot of VRAM to store and without using advanced techniques and tricks, have their own limits (e.g. for scene size). It also costs a lot of time to create each time you change the scene, and it also doesn't eliminate all problems mentioned above, like reflections, moving lights, etc.

Specifically, there is the problem of character lighting itself. Using light probes on characters usually looks pretty bad, as it removes a lot of detail of advanced skin shaders. Even with the above mentioned techniques, character lighting is still extremely hard to do. There is also some other problems, like ambient shadow in already shadowed areas, and light balancing for character versus scene lighting.

For that reason, most AAA games use separate light rigs for characters. Essentially floating lights that ONLY affect the character and move with them. When the mixing with the scene lights is done right, the rig adapts to the current situation in terms of light direction, color, and intensity. If you look in most AAA games, you can often see situations where rim-light comes from a direction where there is no actual light source. However, this way, the devs and artists have full control over lighting the characters. Essentially like a real movie production would have, but without the limitation of the real world.

Now, ray-tracing as you know it right now is not quite there yet, but eventually, ray tracing is the solution to a lot of the problems mentioned above. Things like polygon density, light count, global illumination, ambient occlusion, light direction, reflections, and much more are simply "there" for you to use. Now this doesn't mean that it will automatically make everything look great, but with the overwhelming amount of different tricks that have to be used for current gen games to make the look good, it opens a whole new world of possibilities.

Also, something that will not directly influence the final game, it will eventually simplify things for devs so that more time can be invested into other things.

At this current usage of ray-tracing, it's more like a gimmick, because devs will still focus most resources on the current ways to use light. This is because most people don't have cards with sufficient ray-tracing capabilities. So for the moment, I agree that the performance hit is not worth it. However, eventually it might become the default way to draw games. While we are not quite there, in terms of performance, I think that things might become a lot more consistent and predictable eventually for raytracing.

[–] jukibom@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

YES, thank you! You saved me a lot of writing haha

This is spot on and the real advantage of ray tracing - when it becomes the norm it'll look better, provide effects that are extremely difficult or impossible and do so with minimal dev pain.

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[–] Vqhm@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago

Remember PhysX back when it was a separate
card Physics Processing Unit before they shoved it on the GPU before they even had multithreading? Yea it evolved. But the original implementation was not ideal.

[–] Hexarei@programming.dev 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cyberpunk 2077's RT Overdrive mode looks absolutely insanely good.

[–] Holzkohlen@feddit.de 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Can't wait to play it on a graphics card I can afford in 20 years or so.

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[–] Tau@sopuli.xyz 16 points 1 year ago

Raytracing is good but the problem is that were are in a transitional period (and Nvidia keeps upselling it's products)

[–] Fades@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I haven’t personally experienced a game that made use of it, so it must not exist

This u?

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[–] UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev 80 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Getting the vibe that OP is being serious while using a template supposed to be ironic.

Seems odd to be angry about game graphics progressing. Imagine how it was during the 90s.

[–] veni_vedi_veni@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You may not like it, but Lara Croft pyramid boobs is peak graphics

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[–] Asafum@feddit.nl 22 points 1 year ago (9 children)

And if they are serious it doesn't make sense, ray tracing, path tracing, global illumination, make a game leaps and bounds more enjoyable for me. Realistic lighting is everything, I cannot wait for the day they finally get the new global illumination system in star citizen...

[–] bbpolterGAYst@lemmy.blahaj.zone 34 points 1 year ago (10 children)

games should look like they were made for the ps2 or else im not buying

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[–] Gabu@lemmy.world 77 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This, but unironically. Games don't even need such realistic graphics, anyway - I'd much rather play a stylized or even 2d game where the devs focused on mechanics and fun, rather than pretty lights.

[–] Vuraniute@thelemmy.club 28 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Minecraft, ULTRAKILL, Undertale, Celeste

all of them some of the best games in my opinion, how many use ray tracing? ZERO.

[–] Cowbee@lemm.ee 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hollow Knight, Crosscode, Hades, Dead Cells, Signalis, Dusk, Outer Wilds, Underrail, and more are all great examples of relatively modern games that kill it in the graphical department without using anything fancy.

Edit, because this is fun: Boltgun, Sea of Stars, the Bloodborne PS1 demake, Tunic, and more.

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[–] Zekas@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Garbage take. Few things are truly needed outside of the game being enjoyable and "good" graphics can absolutely be something contributing to that. For some good is pixel graphics, for others it's near realism. You don't get to decide for anyone but you.

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[–] bbpolterGAYst@lemmy.blahaj.zone 24 points 1 year ago (5 children)

fuck graphics all games should be text-based from now on

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[–] SchizoDenji@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

Half of the shit that is praised today are basically subpar rendered movies with little gameplay elements.

Might aswell play a visual novel and atleast get a good story instead.

[–] lorty@lemmy.ml 64 points 1 year ago

Don't worry bro just turn on fake frames and upscaling. Now we get shitty graphics AND raytracing at the same time!

[–] Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 50 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The weird hybrid solutions that game devs are coming up with to beat out the old tech without doing full RTX is awesome. And for that reason I like RTX, because its pushing development of ideas that work better for today's hardware and today's applications.

[–] miss_brainfart@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Raytracing is genuinely cool as hell, but Nvidia needs to stop being a dumb cunt about it

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[–] GTG3000@programming.dev 42 points 1 year ago (4 children)

After playing Portal RTX and Quake 2 RTX, my opinion is that what we really need are games that fully embrace RTX as their rendering. Lower poly count, use materials more, lean in onto the cool lighting.

Games like Cyberpunk 2077 use RTX, but it's just painted over so it is very expensive for what it brings to the table. Sure it's more accurate and having reflections is neat, but it costs more than some shadow maps and doesn't beat good artistic design.

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[–] Guntrigger@feddit.ch 42 points 1 year ago (5 children)

This feels like one of those "VR in the 90s was shit so we should never develop VR" kind of things.

[–] Sheeple@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It's really moreso that raytracing nowadays is intensely poorly implemented when there is usually better ways to go about it.

We have the means to be efficient about our graphics. But instead we go about it in the most unoptimized ways imaginable

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[–] Evotech@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Vr is the 3D cinema of gaming

[–] theangryseal@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (5 children)

When I got my oculus quest I played it as often as possible. That’s the problem though, it just doesn’t make sense to play it almost ever.

If I were a teenager or someone who lived alone I could really get into it. The problem is disconnecting entirely from everyone around me for a game.

With my Steam Deck or my Switch, I can put my kid on my lap and play. I can sit it down easily and help my wife with a chore. I can walk around at work in my downtime and play.

VR is awesome. I absolutely love it. I just don’t have time to fuck with it. I would imagine that’s the case for most people.

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[–] Zacryon@feddit.de 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Raytracing produces realistic visual effects without requiring tricks like ambient occlusion, screen-space reflections, shadow resolution and so on, since those emerge as a result of raytracing anyway and are much more realistic. I'm currently rendering a Donut in Blender where the effects are clearly visible in comparison.

However, due to the high amount of optimization in visually impressive realtime rendering engines like game engines, I agree with you that I don't see many benefits comparing ray tracing in games with contemporary alternative techniques.

Nevertheless I think that's the future. In the long run, there's nothing better, i.e. more accurate, than simulating the behavior of light when it comes to visual realism.

[–] Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Also, baked lighting has another cost - nothing that is baked can be dynamic, and it has to be done during development, so it takes up dev resources.

Raytraced stuff happens immediately without tricks. All you need is the geometry and the materials to be accurate, and it should look right, no questions asked.

Once we get to a point where raytracing can be assumed even for low end systems, the problem where systems can't run certain games could become a thing of the past. I mean, if manufacturers weren't constantly bombarding us with planned & perceived obsolescence.

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[–] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm surprised they didn't go with the fact that ray tracing shoots rays out of the camera rather than having light radiate from light sources.

"That's a scientifically outdated view of how light works! Light enters your eyes, not the other way around! What is this? Emission theory? Are we back in the 1600s? They've played us for absolute fools."

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[–] Smorty@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Eh, pathtracing is pretty cool, and when used correctly, it can lead to real amazing results, while the artist does not have to care about performance as much. Baked lighting is very nice for static scenes, but it also consumes a lot of storage.

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[–] DumbAceDragon@sh.itjust.works 33 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Counterpoint: I like pretty lights and don't mind having to play at a suboptimal framerate if it means more detail that I'm going to notice and enjoy.

Also, I keep seeing people confusing photorealism with a lack of style, when that's just not true. Pixar movies for example are photorealistic but stylized. You can have fancy lights and cool styles.

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[–] nickiam2@aussie.zone 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

To be fair, lighting is the most important part of generating photorealistic graphics. Having realistic and real-time lighting makes it look so much more realistic

[–] pomodoro_longbreak@sh.itjust.works 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

photorealistic ... realistic ... real-time ... more realistic ...

We had a tool for that: it was called IMAGINATION

The graphical fidelity fetish has complete ruined gamers' ability to immerse themselves in make believe worlds without the game doing all the work for us

My tone is /s, but despite my hypocrisy I do believe this is half true

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[–] FilthyShrooms@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Counterargument: my 3090 is my space heater

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[–] workerONE@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 year ago

Yeah I met Ray back at a comiccon in '99. Really down to earth but very bright guy. No room for any disrespect, and his wife Judy is a gem too.

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 20 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Just a side note: simulating light in a 3D environment is the stuff you could use to write a fucking phd, no joke. And another if you can figure a way to make the algorithm faster

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[–] HRDS_654@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Counter, or maybe side, argument; the problem is that nobody has actually done it well. There is a very real difference to be made using real time pathtracing, but everyone is distracted by pretty lights.

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[–] AceQuorthon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Am I the only one who thinks that Ray Tracing doesn't even look good?

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[–] spdrmx@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I like the way insomniac does it with their games on PS5 : priority on hitting 60fps and then raytracing.

Honestly I like ray tracing but I like 60fps more. I don’t care about resolution tho, 1080p is good enough for me. 1440p if I really want to push it.

4K was invented by TV makers to sell 8k TVs

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[–] muix@infosec.pub 14 points 1 year ago
[–] uis@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Didn't quake bounce light 4 times?

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