Australia wants more data centres. A disagreement over power sources stands in the way : australianpolitics

[-] Nath@aussie.zone 9 points 1 day ago

This article raises so many questions. Who is "Australia" in this context? Nobody wants data centres anywhere near them.
What is wrong with the proposed limitation that they provide their own renewable power? That seems like a very reasonable limitation to me. Economics 101: Increase demand and not supply, and prices increase. We'll all be paying more for power for these data centres we don't want.
What the hell are they proposing to do about water consumption? A data centre devoted to LLM (AI) infrastructure uses twice as much water as a regular data centre. Something like 15-20 megalitres per day. That's equivalent to something like 30,000 - 40,000 homes.

Are they trying to get these things built before everyone realises how much they are going to affect us all? It sure seems like it. This is exactly like a mining company proposing to build a mine in your neighbourhood. And should be subject to just as much scrutiny and planning that scenario would be.

Zero LLM data centres might be a little optimistic. We will likely need a couple. But careful planning is required to make them as sustainable and non-impactful to the environment as possible. They use the power of ~100,000 homes and the water of ~40,000. I do not want to be carrying that extra burden in my community.

[-] Wataba@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago

Ok.

Dont let fucking One Nation take ground to spite Labour over bad calls on data centers.

Make yourself heard on rejecting AI slop, but for the love of fucking god dont pull an American Retardation and let bigotry and hatred slip inside in the process.

Dont be that idiot bitching that we avoided getting Peter Dutton's 'War on Woke'.

[-] maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone 1 points 1 day ago

What?

[-] SpicyLizards@reddthat.com 26 points 2 days ago

No Australia does fucking not. Turn coat politicians who are so very happy to sell out the country may

[-] notgold@aussie.zone -2 points 1 day ago

We all want more services, software (AI is software) is just another service.

The unfortunate thing is many youngsters aren't forming meaningful bonds with people and will pay money to create bonds with software. Remember the early internet, porn paid for the high speed upgrade.

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone 7 points 1 day ago

We don’t want AI data centres

They aren’t a service

[-] dgriffith@aussie.zone 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

We all want more services, software (AI is software) is just another service.

We are a country of less than 30 million people. How many datacenters to service "AI" do we actually require?

Do we require a Meta datacenter, an Amazon datacenter, a Anthropic datacenter, and etc etc, so we can burn more resources in the name of 'competition' between all these behemoths?

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone 3 points 1 day ago

Not in Queensland apparently

We don’t want them at all Albanese. I wish these Labor cunts and their spineless PR wankers would read the fuckin room

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

What kind of data centres.

Because I have to tell you, 90% of the people who Have Opinions on datacentres have only ever fucking heard of them in the context of "AI" and they are very very misinformed on what DCs are and what they do. Equating all DCs to LLMs is like equating every single power generation source to a coal burner

tl:dr: outside of LLM shitfactories they literally underpin your modern life.

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone -1 points 1 day ago

No, they don’t underpin it at all. We had no issues running socials et al and private servers fit business or any other data storage needs for that matter.

There’s not a single, valid reason for these other than a small set of individuals controlling as much information as they can and collecting data on individuals.

That’s without even mentioning LLMs.

As for me selectively using AI for anything, I never have and never needed to.

I have yet to see anybody raise and explain a decent rationale for these. The only ones I have identified are bad.

I think the reasons for opposing them are valid.

[-] Nath@aussie.zone 3 points 10 hours ago

There are data centres in every city and there has been since the 90's. You could even argue that telephone exchanges before this filled a similar niche for us.

A regular data centre hosts basically everything on the Internet. Web sites (including this one), databases, storage, email, as well as the network switches and routers that underpin the entire Internet. They are necessary infrastructure and aren't controversial because they are more efficient and better for the environment than every company still having their old server room.

These LLM servers are all about processing. They are far louder - think of the fan noise when your computer gets busy. It's like that. All the time multiplied by thousands of servers. They generate a lot more heat. They have much bigger power and cooling requirements.

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Fucking what

What do you think ISP infrastructure runs out of

Do you know what a colo is

Sit down

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone -1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

[removed by mod]

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 3 points 12 hours ago

Good lord

This is exactly what i meant. You have irrevocably tied llms and datacentres in your head

What did ISPs run out of "before then" ? They have always run out of datacentres. I literally used to work for a dialup that ran its core kit out of a DC back in the day. A datacentre is basically just a server room on steroids. ( I hope you know what a server room is.) They are literally used by Telcos to hold the infrastructure you make calls on and likely used to post that extremely silly comment. They hold the equipment that flung the POS payment from your bank to the coffee shop you used this morning .

Ironically they also hold the equipment used to host and serve the wikipedia page you could have looked at that would have told you that datacentres do not just serve llms, but have in fact been around since the nineteen forties. (How farkin' old do you think chatgpt is? )

So while you may be so wedded to your anger that you decide rampant ignorance and stupidity are the route to go, reality doesnt back you up. The water gobbling pollution shitter that is an llm DC is a very different beast from most, and you've literally turned yourself in to a blithering idiot bleating all thing bad for no good goddamn reason.

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone -3 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Good lord

Thanks for the compliment.

what did ISPs run out of before

Their own servers. Which is what I said. Not a valud reason and thanks for expanding on what I said.

ironically…

And you added nothing here either. I said this existed previously. So, not valid.

wedded to your anger

Nope, just opposing these data centres, like most of the population because they aren’t needed.

As for businesses renting space in these data centres to store their data, you’d have to be pretty fucking stupid not to be running your own servers and handing it over to these arseholes.

Perhaps you should get out and meet some people, touch some fuckin grass Taleya instead of focusing on insults that only make you look like an idiot.

[-] Nbard@aussie.zone 2 points 11 hours ago

My friend, I do not think you know what you are talking about here

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone -2 points 11 hours ago

I couldn’t care less what you think.

Not a single thing mentioned is new. The only things new are purpose built data centres whose goal is to make money on data.

As for hiring space in these centres for your business, you’d be a dickhead to do it.

We don’t need them and given what harm they cause, both environmentally and towards society, there isn’t a valid reason to have them in Australia.

[-] nonentity@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 hours ago

You’ve thoroughly proven you don’t know what you’re typing about, here’s a lollipop 🍭.

…purpose built data centres whose goal is to make money on data.

Only the federal government can make money, if anyone else does that, it’s counterfeiting and fraud. What they’re doing is accumulating money, and extracting profit.

As for hiring space in these centres for your business, you’d be a dickhead to do it.

A roundabout way of admitting your purchase order has been submitted, but you do you.

We don’t need them and given what harm they cause, both environmentally and towards society, there isn’t a valid reason to have them in Australia.

We’ve had them on this island for decades, they’ve been fine until this current fascist perversion tickled the generals of our elected neoliberal ‘representatives’.

My bar is, like any other infrastructure, that they need to be justifiable, and defensible against any legitimate critical scrutiny levelled against them. The hyper concentration of resource ingestion, consumption, and excretion intrinsic of the implementations currently proposed immediately negates them on this basis.

I’d prefer a distributed model. Pepper them throughout existing infrastructure (businesses, basements in apartment towers) to dilute their environmental impact. Require closed loop cooling systems, with exhaust heat captured and fed into secondary functions like preheating hot water. Scale can be built from the diverse meshed connections between neighbouring sites, and sites can be scaled back or shut down as required.

None of that should legitimise the inane push to build ‘AI’ infrastructure. Anyone advocating for that rubbish needs to be summarily dismissed, and ridiculed when they persist.

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone 0 points 10 hours ago

You've thoroughly…

Yeah righto.

extracting profit

Yes, making money.

purchase order

I was thinking more along the lines of important files that you sign confidentiality clauses on, but you do you.

we’ve had them on this island for decades

Yes, and I agree with your bar, and I agree with your position on negation which was really my point.

Pepper them throughout existing infrastructure

Well, wasn’t that kind of what we were doing? Everyone hosting their own data servers, without the addition of holding data outside the infrastructure owner?

AI and LLM infrastructure isn’t just my concern and it isn’t even where my issue came from. It’s data security, the kind of people that tend to own these, what they might do with it and the environmental and social impact.

Outside this very small echo chamber I’m not alone either. Most of those I know professionally harbour the same concerns I do, and don’t believe they are necessary. I agree with Taleya that a lot of people automatically think AI and LLM. I don’t and neither do most of those I’ve worked and engage with.

[-] nonentity@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 hours ago

extracting profit

Yes, making money.

Profit isn’t the origin of money, it’s an accumulation function of currency users. See MMT.

Pepper them throughout existing infrastructure

Well, wasn’t that kind of what we were doing? Everyone hosting their own data servers, without the addition of holding data outside the infrastructure owner?

I’ll rarely advocate for going back to what existed before, but my concept is to build on that distributed deployment, but tie it together with federation and fibre to provide agency, efficiency, and resilience. A distributed data centre for lack of a better term.

AI and LLM infrastructure isn’t just my concern and it isn’t even where my issue came from. It’s data security, the kind of people that tend to own these, what they might do with it and the environmental and social impact.

Smaller, intentional, federated sites could address this, it needs a solid model to build a proof of concept upon.

Outside this very small echo chamber I’m not alone either. Most of those I know professionally harbour the same concerns I do, and don’t believe they are necessary. I agree with Taleya that a lot of people automatically think AI and LLM. I don’t and neither do most of those I’ve worked and engage with.

I suspect something was lost or omitted in the thread to this point which masked a broader consensus, and I think there’s a lot of potential if our agreements can be realised less violently.

[-] Nbard@aussie.zone 2 points 10 hours ago

That isn't what this was about tho. @Taleya was talking about how people are conflating datacenters in general with the overpowered LLM ones. And you exemplified that pretty spectacularly.

You also seem to be a bit confused one what a server is vs a datacenter given some of your comments

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone 0 points 9 hours ago

And Taleya is probably right with that, which is why that wasn’t addressed. I didn’t agree with the underpinning of every aspect of our lives and while I may or may not be accurate with that, my concern isn’t generated by AI or LLMs, nor is it because I confuse the data centres.

It’s the building of more mass data centres which I don’t believe we necessarily need, and those concerns are based on the data kept, what it’s used for, what is done with data stored against the wishes of the owner and the environmental and social impacts.

That I may not qualify to work in an IT department doesn’t make any difference to this…I’m not alone with this outside these small echo chambers. Taleya might be right when they say people confuse the data centres but not here.

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 2 points 11 hours ago

Mm, at this point you're shitposting or trolling. Either way there is zero good faith here.

School holidays must have started already

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone -1 points 11 hours ago

That was pretty pathetic as well.

Yeah, go outside Taleya, it’s a lovely day

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 1 points 11 hours ago

Ok kiddo.

[-] Slartifartblast@piefed.social 12 points 1 day ago

In the words of a wise Australian philosopher:

No way!

Get fucked!

Fuck off!

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone 1 points 1 day ago

That was his followers actually

[-] stylusmobilus@aussie.zone 2 points 1 day ago

Don’t put handfuls of sugar in the concrete to build these and definitely don’t pour buckets of diatomaceous earth near their intakes

Absolutely don’t punch the CEOs of these companies in the face

[-] shads@leminal.space 9 points 2 days ago

Imagine being someone who distrusted radium in 1900. Trying to understand this outrageous desire to shove poison into every product under the sun. Watching people literally brushing their teeth with it. Knowing how horrifically bad it was going to turn out.

Fucking capitalism never misses a chance to fuck people over. In a couple of years time when we are all in the AI hangover it's going to be curious to see how many people "knew all along" AI was a fantastically bad idea.

I know the data centres can be repurposed for other tasks once they don't need that density of compute, but what a waste.

Oh and before any sheep start bleating about how it's just a tool, and you can't stuff the genie back in the bottle...

Fuck off.

You willingly embrace the cognitive damage machine I will be maintaining my stance of "Fuck AI" and unless you have a background in neuroscience (and can post your credentials) I will likely be as unconvinced by your bullshit as the last hundred of your ilk who have fed me the same shitty rationalisations.

[-] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 day ago

you're comparing a data centre to radium?

[-] shads@leminal.space 7 points 1 day ago

I'm comparing LLM based "AI" to radium. The data centres are just the paint factories in this analogy.

[-] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 day ago

i guess im screwed then, what will happen to me?

i use ai like 10 times a day

[-] notgold@aussie.zone 2 points 1 day ago

Depends. If you are offloading your critical thinking that will decline, if your offloading your humour then that will decline. Use AI in moderation and check results produced before sending on to someone else.

[-] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -1 points 1 day ago

A guy walks into a pub and sees a dog sitting at the bar playing poker with three other blokes. He's absolutely floored, taps the nearest bloke on the shoulder and says, "Mate, I've never seen anything like this — a dog playing poker!"

The bloke shrugs and says, "Yeah, he's alright, but don't get too excited. Whenever he gets a good hand, his tail starts wagging."

i duno i thought that was alright, funnier than anything I could have thought up :X

[-] notgold@aussie.zone 2 points 1 day ago

I laughed

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 points 8 hours ago

You're going to be absolutely floored if you Google "funny jokes" then

[-] notgold@aussie.zone 1 points 8 hours ago

I was already on the shitter doing that

[-] shads@leminal.space 1 points 1 day ago

Just like radium has (a very few) legitimate uses, so do LLMs. Stop using them as a thought/research replacement and use it sparingly. Natural language processing for instance is a good use. But it should never be feeding that into another LLM to action the speech it has interpreted and taking all agency away from humans IMHO.

[-] Lodespawn@aussie.zone 4 points 1 day ago

Yeah, we don't have the water for that shit. These things will suck our aquifers dry, we need desal plants just for fucking drinking water. It is clear from how this has played out everywhere else and how our own resources boom has played out that we need strict controls on how these things are provided with energy and water. Need to start writing some letters to state and fed MPs and members of local govt.

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