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[-] mechoman444@lemmy.world 30 points 6 days ago

At one point, the American people fought for their freedom from what they considered an oppressive and tyrannical authority: the English Crown. The American flag, in that context, came to represent resistance to arbitrary authority and the idea that government ultimately derives its legitimacy from the people.

And the Founding Fathers were not, as Prager would have you believe, a monolithic group of devout, orthodox Christians. Many were heavily influenced by the Enlightenment, Deism, rationalism, and religious skepticism. Some rejected core doctrines of Christianity outright. Calling them atheist would be historically inaccurate, but portraying them as a uniformly God-fearing Christian movement is equally misleading.

The irony is that when some Americans look at that same flag today, they see it as a symbol of the very kind of powerful, oppressive authority that the American Revolution was fought against. The difference is that ordinary people today don't have the same practical means of challenging their government that the revolutionaries ultimately resorted to.

So if anyone needs to do a little more historical research, Prager might want to start with the people who actually founded the country.

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 days ago

At one point, the American people fought for their freedom from what they considered an oppressive and tyrannical authority: the English Crown.

Some did. Some were merely opportunists who didn't want the government getting in their way. Most of the US founding fathers were smugglers and land speculators. They didn't like that the US had ended the French and Indian war by promising that in exchange for peace, their colony would stop expanding westwards. That pissed off the founders who had bought land to the west and wanted a return on their investments.

Other American people were just fine with the arrangement with the crown. They didn't want a brand new government, they thought things were fine as they were. These people were either killed or driven off their land by the rebels who wanted a new government, and were forced to head to England or up into Canada.

Just look at the other places that didn't consider the British monarch to be an oppressive tyrant: Canada, Australia, NZ, etc. Did they suffer under the grinding boot of the king and lead miserable lives as a result? Were they forced to hand all their wealth over to England? Hardly. Within a few decades the British gave their local governments more power. Now they all merely have the king as a figurehead and are fully controlled by the people.

Meanwhile, the rebel colonists in the US went only a couple of decades before descending into a civil war. Plus, there's the war of 1812 which, in large part, was due to these people who famously hated tyrants and oppression ignoring treaties and killing off natives so that they could expand westward.

It seems to me that if you look past all the propaganda that is part of the US school system, the British king being a "tyrant" was more of a convenient excuse rather than the actual legitimate reason for the rebellion.

[-] mobyduck648@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago

What I find interesting is that all of this was happening after a civil war more bloody per capita than the First World War, the trial and execution of a king, a period of rather repressive republican rule, a restoration of the monarchy, and yet another revolution/coup which established monarchs couldn't rule without Parliament's consent. Part of the reason Britain wasn't revolutionary later on like France was because multiple revolutions had already happened in the 17th century. The Americans were by the point of the revolution arguing George III was an absolutist and a tyrant, but that form of monarchy had already had its back broken in an English and later British context by the time the American colonies were being settled in large numbers (with some exceptions). It was an accusation much more apt towards say the French king at the time who in fact supported the Americans, and we all know how that eventually went for the Ancien Regime.

The colonist's grievance was actually more with Parliament for the most part, they actively wanted the king to intercede on their behalf. George III wasn't willing to do that being a constitutional monarch, which ironically got him labelled a tyrant.

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 days ago

Also, the whole "no taxation without representation" does make sense. But, it's not as if a typical British person had significantly more rights than the colonists. The UK didn't deal with its problem with Rotten and Pocket Boroughs until the 1830s. That meant that there were cities in the UK who had no MPs, and there were MPs representing places where nobody lived.

[-] PhoenixDog@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago

Just look at the other places that didn’t consider the British monarch to be an oppressive tyrant: Canada, Australia, NZ, etc. Did they suffer under the grinding boot of the king and lead miserable lives as a result? Were they forced to hand all their wealth over to England?

While I completely understand and mostly agree with your point, speaking as a Canadian millions of people suffered under the grinding boot of the king and were forced to give up not only their wealth, but also their languages and cultures. The genocide of the indigenous peoples in Canada is an atrocious part of our history, and the last Residential School wasn't closed down until the 1990s.

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[-] mattyroses@lemmy.today 3 points 5 days ago

You're conflating the Revolution with the "Founding Fathers", who were actually mainly associated with the constitution.

Which was in many ways the counter revolution, where the rich and propertied (like Washington) decided that the Revolution had gone too far, with Shay's Rebellion and revolts against debt being the main driver of that.

[-] mechoman444@lemmy.world 4 points 5 days ago

Yes thank you you are actually correct here I did in fact conflate the two.

I appreciate you pointing this out in a constructive and meaningful way.

Ultimately the point that I was trying to make is that a Preger is an idiot.

Him telling people that they need to do historical research on the American flag is the quintessential epitome of the pot calling the kettle black.

[-] mattyroses@lemmy.today 3 points 5 days ago

oh totally - it's just that the myth making of US history isn't new, and part of why these grifters get away with this nonsense is that there's been a fertile plot of bullshit for a long time.

But yeah, no, America was not founded as a "Christian nation". Anyone thinking that is ignoring the Jefferson Bible, or the Treaty of Tripoli.

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[-] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

The irony is that when some Americans look at that same flag today, they see it as a symbol of the very kind of powerful, oppressive authority that the American Revolution was fought against.

And, unfortunately, a lot of people around the world look at it that way too.

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[-] CalypsoGirl@lemmy.today 20 points 6 days ago

I think we all know by now that everything prageru says is mental gymnastics ragebait.

[-] 5318008@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

18% of Americans were unable to select the correct option:

A) The Earth revolves around the Sun

B) The Sun revolves around the Earth

C) I don't know

Edit: I found a source for 26% before I found the source for 18%

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, no matter how obvious it is, there are tens of millions of Americans who will easily get it wrong.

[-] Mulligrubs@lemmy.world 19 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

The USA is just as bloody as its parent, the UK, and they're both as bad as other nations with an Imperial past. I don't see any one as "worse" than the others.

I don't know all of world history, there's always more to learn, but every empire I've researched devolves into this at some point.

But, even small countries like Belgium manage to wreak havoc.

This is why government needs to be limited, in my opinion. Governments are killing machines, and the bigger they get, the easier it is. Just like people, governments require rules to limit them or its madness. I think the USA, Russia, and China all have the same problem, they're too big for their own good.

[-] cardboardboxfort@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago

The USA is just as bloody as its parent, the UK, and they’re both as bad as other nations with an Imperial past.

Or, you know, damn near every single empire or powerful ruler throughout all of human history. The Greek golden age was only possible thanks to slaves working the fields, Rome was similar in this regard.

Eastern nations weren't any better, read up on ancient Chinese culture and all the fucked up shit they did.

Same goes for India, hell they're still trying to end child marriage but still represent like 20-25% of all child marriages in the world.

People love to dog on America, and I'll be happy to point out all the historical examples, but the truth is this is more a symptom of the human condition and less about a nation. Look at the other countries on earth and you'll find plenty of evidence that evil isn't isolated to one nation, people, culture or time period.

It's universally a human thing.

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[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 22 points 6 days ago

The flag doesn't offend me. It's just a piece of colored cloth. It's the people doing those horrible acts that offend me. Especially the ones using the flag as a justification.

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[-] OnyxRex@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I've reached a point where I can't even list all the bs. I don't even have to go international. I can just think about a dozen different half-remembered bs off the dome that happened here locally.

I'm not fully versed in history, but I've also gotten to the point where I know enough to realize that humans suck. The ones that don't are always destroyed by the ones that do.

That scientist in 12 Monkeys had a point.

[-] AlSweigart@lemmy.zip 14 points 6 days ago

I’ve reached a point where I can’t even list all the bs.

The Wikipedia page for United States involvement in regime change is, if printed, 77 pages long.

[-] OnyxRex@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 6 days ago

The thing that makes me tired; in a different time, That statement alone would have been enough to make people pause. Now it's fake news. You can't find common ground with people that don't believe in documented historical facts.

[-] heartSagan5@lemmy.zip 6 points 6 days ago

"documented historical facts?" That's a lot of words, are you a f-g? or "that's woke."

They're ostracizing it, which means we're going head first into repeats.

[-] OnyxRex@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 6 days ago

It's just wild to me that we got here. We had the most uncensored communication tool in generations and somehow still the shit heads showed up and stole it and figured out exactly what to say to make the idiots fall in line. It's not new but I just thought that we had the ability to move beyond it. It breaks my heart. We could have been so much better but here we are repeating history.

[-] Furbag@pawb.social 12 points 6 days ago

God I hate how shitter puts the reply on top of the original post so when you read it from top to bottom like a normal human being it feels like a Jeopardy question.

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[-] BilSabab@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

and that's just page one of search results

[-] Tja@programming.dev 8 points 6 days ago

If the commenter didn't have the Chinese flag in their name the message would sound a lot less hypocritical.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

The flag is absolutely fine.

The people who like to wave it around in the shattered remains of schools in other countries are assholes though. Although in fairness they do kill a lot of their own school kids as well so perhaps that's just the American way

As a flag it's not very appealing tbh, too many small details as well.

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[-] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

the entire world throughout human history has gotten where they are by conquering the neighbors, including mass murdering them, enslaving them, and forcing them to obey them or die. thankfully, that has tapered off a lot in the last half century but thats not really long enough to be certain it wont keep going

[-] mirshafie@europe.pub 5 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

No, this is incorrect and it only serves to whitewash colonialism and the particularly cruel practices of the British Empire and its grotesque contemporary vestige.

Ruthless conquering forces are the exception, not the rule. Ethnic groups coexisted, intermarried and assimilated. Languages and political systems merged. Migration was not, normally, conquest. And conquest did not normally amount to ethnic cleansing.

The British empire starved millions of people across multiple continents. It is a part of their coping mechanism to posit that the only thing that separates the English from other peoples us the opportunity. But we have many other empires in history that didn't even treat theit most remote provinces how the British treated Ireland, to say nothing of its more distant colonies.

The USA is worse in spirit than Britain ever was, but luckily with much more limited opportunity.

That's why the message of Cyrus from 2600 years ago is inscribed in the UN.

Conquest was common enough there are prehistoric records of it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_warfare

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[-] kshade@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago

This coming from someone with what looks like the Chinese flag in their name is... interesting.

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this post was submitted on 01 Oct 2026
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Microblog Memes

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