111

Alaska's rivers are turning orange and no one knows why (www.newsweek.com)

submitted 2 years ago by throws_lemy to c/news@lemmy.world

34 comments fedilink hide all child comments

all 35 comments

sorted by: hot top new old

[-] vexikron@lemmy.zip 180 points 2 years ago

Pretty misleading title.

It is known why the rivers are running orange. It is because the permafrost is thawing.

Sure, the exact, specific process causing the oxidation is being debated by scientists, but ... the reason is because the permafrost is thawing.

Anyway, what this nearly certainly means is that the artic has already blown past the feared warming tipping point and is now releasing methane, which is a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2.

This article should be focusing on how this likely indicates that climate change will intensify faster than commonly understood by the general public.

But instead it diverts from this.

[+] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works -46 points 2 years ago

Sure, the exact, specific process causing the oxidation is being debated by scientists, but ...

Which makes the title accurate? I didn't find it misleading at all.

[-] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 31 points 2 years ago

It's more like the article is focusing on the wrong part of this story. The exact mechanism can be debated but we know what's happening and why: global warming. The article just doesn't want to acknowledge that so it focuses on the fact that science hasn't conclusively figured out the mechanism.

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

It would be like saying "the glass feel of the table, but we don't know why it hit the ground" just because we do not understand gravity in every way possible.

[-] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works -5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I don't like your analogy. We understand the physics of falling pretty well. We do not understand the chemistry of this reaction.

Maybe "the glass fell because of humans". Did they push it off a table? Drop it? Place it inn the counter wrong?

Edit: let me put it this way - the water could turn orange without a melting permafrost right? So while the change in this instance may be triggered by melting permafrost it is not a necessary condition. The cause is something more necessary.

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

What makes your think that we do not understand the chemistry here?

Where do we start the "x is caused by y"? The way it actually happened? Then melting permafrost is indeed the first step. If you want to go by how we ended up perceiving it, then you need to start, for example, at how the brown color came to be. Then where that came from. Then what caused it to be made. Etc.

[-] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 years ago

There's definitely a long chain of events that led to these rivers turning orange.

It would be unsatisfying to say "the universe coming into existence caused it". You need to pick a level to stop at. You're satisfied with "melting permafrost causes water to turn orange" but I think it's very reasonable to step a level down. The title is accurate in that regard. The people complaining seem to want the article to be more political.

BTW this discussion reminds me of when Feynman was asked about magnetism.

https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8?si=k45lFqc0729QQHjX

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 39 points 2 years ago

It's a geochemistry issue.

In mine closure, artic mines will protect their tailings and waste rock using thermal covers that insulate them from heat, and allow permafrost to form, thus entombing the PAG (Potentially acid generating material - acid drainage presents orange like this too). The frost prevent oxygen (and dissolved oxygen - from water) from interacting with the material, and causing the acid-generating reaction.

With the thawing of natural permafrost, iron that was frozen (as water soluble reduced iron) is released and then oxidized, causing the orange water.

[-] SuiXi3D@kbin.social 9 points 2 years ago

So it’s rust.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 10 points 2 years ago

Rust, or rusty water with battery acid pH

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

Battery acid is extremely concentrated compared to that water. Iron can only precipitate if it is very dilute.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 years ago

https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/70022523#:~:text=Extremely%20acidic%20mine%20waters%20with,Mine%20at%20Iron%20Mountain%2C%20CA.

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Yes, that was measured somewhere in some amount. But not in this picture here for several reasons.

If left for itself, that is the concentration it tends to go to since the water evaporates, leaving the H2SO4 behind.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

Are you talking about the concentration of the water or the pH?

The pH in AMD water is very low. Sub 3 values are not uncommon. If you're talking about metal loading, that too can be relatively high, or extreme in some cases, and the impacts can be huge

I'm not a geochemist, but have to have passable knowledge for my work. I know several colleagues who are geochems or water treatment geeks. I'm happy to reach out to them, if you would like to know more or get into the specifics.

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

"sub 3" is nothing* compared to battery acid. Note that +-1 pH is a difference of 10x. here pH over concentration, note the graph ends at ~10 %, which is 1/3 of battery acid, but is already below pH 0.

*Yes, technically every value below 3 is included in "sub 3". But making an upper limit that is a more than 1'000x lower concentration is absurd.

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

"sub 3" is nothing* compared to battery acid. Note that 1 pH more or less is a difference of 10x. here pH over concentration, note the graph ends at ~10 %, which is 1/3 of battery acid, but is already below pH 0.

*Yes, technically every value below 3 is included in "sub 3". But making an upper limit that is a more than 1'000x lower concentration is absurd.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago

Alright, well I'll concede that my estimation of pH for battery acid was off - they have it listed at 0.8. I'm accurate with the AMD levels though.

It can get very bad though, like the iron mountain mine article I linked to, where it's -3.6

With the lower pHs, though, even those around 5, you get metal leaching which quickly becomes a large problem. On top of that, the wastes act as a massive source of both acidity and metals.

[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

I agree. It is just not THAT acidic. The pH will be above 3.5 to be more specific, which is the pH above which Fe3+ can precipitate. Check this pallet for details.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 24 points 2 years ago

The answer rhymes with Limate Lange.

[-] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

Primate Flange?

[-] Aurix@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

Pirate Beige?

[-] andrewta@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Pyrite cage?

[-] Sabata11792@kbin.social 4 points 2 years ago

Irate mage?

[-] YoorWeb@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Pretty Cage?

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

Only if you mispronounce 'primate.'

[-] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago

I never pisspronunciate my worms

[-] snowe@programming.dev 4 points 2 years ago

And flange

[-] MagicShel@programming.dev 6 points 2 years ago

Sounds like rust. Congratulations, you've struck iron.

[-] RoboRay@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

How ironic.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net -1 points 2 years ago

It's not naturally occurring aqua regia, is it?

[-] Death_Equity@lemmy.world -2 points 2 years ago

Where in Alaska can I buy drums of potassium metabisulfite?

[-] HopeOfTheGunblade@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

Sreetips fan?

this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2023

111 points (82.1% liked)

News

39029 readers

2581 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil

Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.

2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.

Obvious biased sources will be removed at the mods’ discretion. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted separately but not to the post body. Sources may be checked for reliability using Wikipedia, MBFC, AdFontes, GroundNews, etc.

3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.

Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.

4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source. Clickbait titles may be removed.

Posts which titles don’t match the source may be removed. If the site changed their headline, we may ask you to update the post title. Clickbait titles use hyperbolic language and do not accurately describe the article content. When necessary, post titles may be edited, clearly marked with [brackets], but may never be used to editorialize or comment on the content.

5. Only recent news is allowed.

Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.

6. All posts must be news articles.

No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials, videos, press releases, or celebrity gossip will be allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis. Mods may use discretion to pre-approve videos or press releases from highly credible sources that provide unique, newsworthy content not available or possible in another format.

7. No duplicate posts.

If an article has already been posted, it will be removed. Different articles reporting on the same subject are permitted. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.

8. Misinformation is prohibited.

Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.

9. No link shorteners or news aggregators.

All posts must link to original article sources. You may include archival links in the post description. News aggregators such as Yahoo, Google, Hacker News, etc. should be avoided in favor of the original source link. Newswire services such as AP, Reuters, or AFP, are frequently republished and may be shared from other credible sources.

10. Don't copy entire article in your post body

For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 3 years ago

MODERATORS

JonsJava@lemmy.world

gedaliyah@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world