this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023

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Hey guys, this time I really messed up :/ (kbin.social)

submitted 1 year ago by ernest@kbin.social to c/kbinMeta@kbin.social

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I think you should see something.

Like I mentioned many time before, this isn't my first attempt at creating an aggregator. Years ago, I built something similar, and back then I drew a lot of inspiration from Postmill. This time, to avoid starting from scratch, I get some elements from my old snippets. Originally, kbin was meant to be a project just for me and a few friends, so I didn't attribute the origin authors. That's not an excuse, though — I should have done it right away when the project became public on git. I have a point in my roadmap called "Preparing a repository for contributors," where I allocated a significant amount of time to educate myself about licenses, attributions, and so on. Unfortunately, everything unfolded in the wrong order.

https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues/196

I think Emma is right. Since I share my small successes with you, I also want to be transparent about my failures and mistakes. I will push the proper attributions to the repository today along with some critical fixes.

To avoid reinventing the wheel, I took some code used in federation from Pixelfed as well. Essentially, there are two projects two projects will be marked. However, I have never concealed this fact:

https://kbin.social/m/random/p/254858/The-real-reason-why-I-haven-t-published-the-pixelfed-app#post-comment-438684

I mean that I'm not a guy who wants to steal your code. It's obvious that someone will take a look at the code of a project that is very similar to theirs. Sometimes, I just become terribly messy when I have to do many things at once. This lesson will definitely teach me to prioritize tasks better.

In the end, I can only promise that once everything settles down and I manage to extract a library for ActivityPub, I will revisit the Postmill repository, this time with a pull request proposal.

You should definitely check it out.

https://postmill.xyz/ - Project page
https://raddle.me/ - Postmill instance
https://pixelfed.org/ - Of course, everyone here is familiar with this one ;)

PS. the website should be running a bit faster. I will talk about it next time.

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[–] Adderalldependent@kbin.social 79 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is the kind of transparent communication that buys so much goodwill and trust from the community. I've been enjoying my first experience in the Fediverse with Kbin, and the response here only makes me love it that much more. Nicely handled.

[–] PtitSerpent@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think we did a good choice

[–] JonEFive@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Agreed. I had already created an account on a Lemmy instance (Lemmy.one since I wanted to avoid the two main .ml instances). I had just about settled but decided to give Kbin a try. While it doesn't seem quite as far along in it's development, it struck me as a better user experience. Combined with reservations I have about the Lemmy developers... Well, here we are. And seeing this level of involvement and dedication to doing the right thing from the developer confirms that choice. Kudos @ernest

[–] Rhaedas@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

I've been using both sides to figure things out, and I always end up using kbin more.

[–] DerWilliWonka@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

As I am totally new to this whole thing, could you elaborate for me on those reservations about the lemmy developers? And are those the same that created lemmy.world?

[–] j3j5@hachyderm.io 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

@ernest Hey man, if it's of any help, I have a PHP (laravel) project which mostly federates fine, license is AGPLv3 as well, so feel free to reuse what you see fit.

Edit: may be more useful with the link 🤦‍♂️

https://gitlab.com/j3j5/fedibots/

[–] ernest@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I will definitely check it out! Thanks

[–] j3j5@hachyderm.io 4 points 1 year ago

@ernest It's still wip so not all AP activities are supported yet, but it's powering some of my bots ( @BigBo_Energy @MeteoUY @LaDiaria )

[–] ernest@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

It makes a strong impression at first glance.

[–] 0xtero@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Seems just like another day with open source software.
You gotta be careful about licensing and attribution and it can get really messy, but no big deal really.
Seems like you're correcting this and acting in good faith.

It shouldn't happen, but it happens. Thanks for the transparency

[–] Figaro@readit.buzz 5 points 1 year ago

Agreed, that's the key - act in good faith.

If you make a mistake, try to fix it in good faith. Seems like that's what is happening. 👍

[–] tehcooles@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Emma's point is valid, but it was a pretty ham-fisted and overly-agressive way to approach it. May need to touch some grass. Could have just been a "hey, noticed this. Could you look into this?" And then if your response wasn't great then get mad. Seems like the assumption from they get-go was that you're just an asshole that didn't care and did it intentionally.

[–] knoland@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cross-posting my comment:

This is one of my largest frustrations with the open source community. Everything is immediately assumed as malicious. There is no escalation, it's "you screwed me over" from the jump.

I suppose it's bred from decades of large corporations pilfering open source for profit. However, this post could easily have been, "I noticed there's some code I wrote that wasn't attributed, would you mind adding that?". Escalate from there if the appropriate actions aren't taken.

[–] neonfire@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For real, the person's name is LitigousEmma. This is one step away from a copyright troll, which imo seems to the the mortal enemy of the idea of FOSS. Did this Emma recognize all the developers of the programming languages they used, or the people who made the computer they worked on, or the pioneers of electronics in general? It's not like Emma took quarks and atoms and turned it into an web aggregator.

[–] knoland@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (6 children)

In LitigousEmma's defense, kbin did not comply with the license terms of the open source software, so there is a valid concern here. Unlike most programming languages which are often released under licenses which do not requite attribution.

However, mistakes happen. The open source community is better off if we could all just start from 0 and escalate based on response.

[–] gus@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Honestly that's my only issue with this. Ernest was totally rightfully called out for this, as he should have been. But Emma's knee jerk reaction is just a real bad look. Don't make any attempt to reach out and figure out why it's in there. Immediately make a public post accusing him of stealing code, trying to hide that he stole it, and claim it as his own...on a FOSS project no less...

Surely there's a step or 2 before that point..

[–] knoland@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't have any issue with opening an issue in the repo, that part seems reasonable. It, by definition, is an issue with the codebase.

[–] gus@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Right, I wasn't saying it shouldn't have been a public post. Just that the public post shouldn't have immediately jumped to accusations. FOSS or not, accusing someone of stealing code and intentionally trying to obfuscate its origin to pass it off as their own is a big deal for a developer. One that can destroy your reputation

A simple "I've noticed snippets in here of my work that falls under a license which is not attributed at all. Could you add the proper attributions or remove it from your project?" says the same thing and doesn't jump to any accusations that you have no idea if are true or not

[–] Rhaedas@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not knowing either parties at all, I'd say the best solution is to assume both meant the best and some mistakes were made. One for forgetting to give credit for code, the other for wording in their asking to fix the mistake. At the end of the day, credit is given and the code grows, both benefit. Don't dwell on the small stuff that got there, problem is solved.

[–] gus@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Agreed! Totally think this is a learning experience for both sides

An...earnest mistake?

I'm sorry

[–] Adama@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Some good points but a counter point to consider.

Whether it’s a photo used without permission by a big company or people using your work without attribution there does tend to be a dismissive attitude overall (not that that is the case here)

I can see how somebody could come into this situation with that as the background and just cut right to the chase.

There wasn’t a “cease and desist” (the legal equivalent of an ahem) nor a DMCA copyright takedown (harsher but less financial damaging than a copyright suit with damages)

Their tone was scolding but it was a “hey… heads up… you gotta fix this” without resorting to any of the above.

Ernest took it with the right attitude and Emma accepted it and that’s that.

Couldn’t really ask for a better outcome and Emma has every right to come out swinging harder than she did.

I can’t speak to her experience with this but personally it is sometimes better to be firm (but fair) at the outset so people don’t ignore a softer tone requiring you to escalate it.

That’s just bad for everybody all around.

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[–] DracolaAdil@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I agree. Firstly, a public post...and secondly...a public post bashing a fellow developer with passive aggressive quotes.

Now I may be assuming but it didn't seem like LitigiousEmma mad an attempt to privately contact Ernest and... and assumed the worst in the post.

I'm just a reddit normie so I don't know what happens behind the scenes but so far Ernest has been earnest and honest... as long as that is the case I'll stand with you bud!

You made a mistake and are taking responsibility for it. I respect that!

P.S. - Notice how LitigiousEmma's post is recent. LE just wants their name out there. If Kbin flopped then no fs would be given.

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[–] azura@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's alright. I do think the actual issue was worded perhaps a bit harshly and combative, and I think you responded correctly. Very much appreciate the accountability here. To be honest if anything, this probably gives me more faith in you in the long run. There are many ways you could have dealt with it, but as far as I can see you've dealt with the issue as honorably as you could have.
Proper attribution can be tricky. We all learn. We all make mistakes. A lot of us will never release a project that makes it as far as yours has so even our issues don't become even nearly as visible.
Keep your head up and stay calm. You're doing great. We got you.

[–] JonEFive@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are many ways you could have dealt with it, but as far as I can see you've dealt with the issue as honorably as you could have

It's certainly a far cry away from "We will remain profit driven until profits arrive" that a certain someone said in response to a legitimate question over on the other site. A breath of fresh air really.

[–] CoderKat@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Lol, exactly what I was thinking. I can't imagine a Reddit admin posting something like this.

[–] lixus98@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

We appreciate the transparency and hope everything can be solved without much friction. Keep it up!

[–] miroppb@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Website is definitely running faster. Thank you @ernest

[–] Rodrickee@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Thank you very much for the transparency

[–] roofuskit@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Lol, she picked a hell of a username on codeberg. Very fitting.

"Hey Ernest, I see you have used my code from (project) without proper attribution as required by the license. Can you please correct the attribution or remove the infringing code?"

How hard would that have been? If she didn't get the response she wanted she could then escalate.

[–] whenlifegivesyoureddit@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

It was a mistake and you went about this the right way. You're doing an amazing job!

[–] FlockOfCats@famichiki.jp 2 points 1 year ago

I feel a lot more comfortable with the developer of kbin (@ernest) than the Lemmy devs.

Here, he messed up by not giving attribution for some code, but the transparency and remedy of the error are appreciated.

It’s nice to see something that builds trust as opposed to burning it down like at #Reddit

#fediverse #kbin

[–] sickcodebruh@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Mistakes happen, what matters is how you recover from them. Keep doing what you’re doing!

[–] NorthernLightMountain@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Good on you for being so transparent! Very well handled mate.

[–] Zak8022@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Seems that so long as the attribution is in place the Postmill people aren't going to push it further. I (and I hope the community) appreciate your transparency and honesty. That's the sort of thing that makes me want to stick around here and support this project.

And for fun, I will check out those other sites, since I hadn't heard about Postmill/Raddle before.

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[–] Timwi@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

You, sir, are an honorable person. I think I can speak for all open-source hobby programmers when I say: you make us proud.

[–] lh@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Seems to me you're handling it the best way possible - yes, re-using open source code without proper attribution is an unfortunate mistake, but you've also clearly explained the reasons it happened. I also understand why the original code author reacted very strongly; when code is stolen maliciously and with intent, it's a huge "fuck you" to the original authors, who have freely released their code on the basis that they receive attribution of their use.

Good to see you've subsequently made up, and the code can stay. Thanks for being transparent, @ernest!

[–] Sausage@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Every single thread or comment I see from you further cements the image of a good dude.

Mistakes happen, how we handle it defines us, and you've handled this the best way possible.

[–] DaisyLee@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Licenses are hard. The fact that you are being transparent means this was not malice. Keep improving, and it all will work out in the end.

[–] RaleighEnt@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Damn emma really tore into you in that issue lol. A lot of assumptions about malicious intentions when a simple mistake seems much more likely. I mean I know they're in the right defending their work but damn idk if they needed to make such a big public stink about it lol

[–] mooklepticon@mstdn.social 1 points 1 year ago

@RaleighEnt @ernest Yeah, this part - "I have never given you permission to take my work uncredited and slap your licence on it--I wonder what your sponsors would have to say about that." - Seems unnecessarily harsh. It's not wrong, it's just a bit overboard. "Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance." or however that quote goes. It's a simple oversight.

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[–] LollerCorleone@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

I like you even more now for admitting your mistake without any hesitation and taking the steps to rectify your error. Keep up the good work!

[–] HanaSolo@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Thanks, Ernest. You’re good people. 😊

[–] eltimablo@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

You handled this extremely well, especially in the face of someone so clearly looking for things to be outraged by. LitigiousEmma had no reason to be that aggressive right out of the gate and comes off as someone that the Open Source community would be significantly better off without.

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