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Generally speaking, no.
You have to create a dozen fucking accounts and install their ad-ridden proprietary fucking spyware on your phone to use them. Then you have to pray you have cellular reception when you get there so your stupid app can connect to the piece of shit you're standing next to.
This is the appropriate amount of annoyed. There isn't enough competition yet for these charging companies to care about user experience.
I don't think competition is the issue. These companies are just following the roadmaps of their predecessors. It's a paradigm shift.
Like if anyone told you you couldn't install x software on MacOS because they haven't approved of it and want 30% of every dollar you spend on it, you would be outraged. But they create a new OS/market in iOS that does exactly that and people are tripping over themselves to buy the new one.
Similarly if you told anyone you needed to sign up for an account at the gas station, you'd just go across the street to the other one and fill up there. But EV chargers? Well this is a new opportunity to fuck consumers and all the corporations who can afford to actually create this sort of infrastructure all want that kind of shit more than they want to be competitive.
I wound up in a rental for close to two months last fall. The Electrify America chargers took credit cards but charged more. It looked like you could also get an RFID card that identified you and billed to the account on file at the lower rate. I used another weird DC fast charge that was part of Shell’s network and related to Duke Energy that was app only, very annoying. I used a level 2 from ChargePoint and had to use the app. The cell service didn’t matter; it was deep in an underground garage with no signal. I had to go out to download the app, then came back in to initiate the charging session. It was annoying to do in the moment, but once the account was set up worked pretty easily, and it looks some of those apps work with other networks. I think it would be okay as long as I was signed up on a few networks, but I’d really rather be able to just tap my credit card and go, no signup needed. That was part of the IRA, but it’ll take time to roll out.
Yeah, I'm really hoping as more of the IRA-funded ones come online and build out, we'll see more traditional payment options become the norm. I really don't like the idea of an app for every charging network. That's insane, IMO. Hopefully as EVs take off, there will be pushback from people on all the apps.
Even within the US it varies massively from state to state and even city to city.
I'm in Southern Cal and have access to a ton of DC fast chargers, and the ones near me either accept credit card or app or little keychain RFID/QR token/fob/thing. However, almost none of the level 2 public chargers accept credit cards, either app only or fob thing. When I rented an EV in Florida, the only charger I could find that actually worked at all required an app to work.
In short, a debit card is definitely not guaranteed to be accepted unless you find one that still allows the keyfob/credit card-sized wallet card. You need to drive around to local chargers in your neighborhood to check them out.
In short, a debit card is definitely not guaranteed to be accepted unless you find one that still allows the keyfob/credit card-sized wallet card. You need to drive around to local chargers in your neighborhood to check them out.
Thanks for the insight! That's kind of exactly what I was afraid of. Call me a dinosaur, but I have very few apps, and every one of them is a convenience and not a requirement in my day-to-day life. I do not see my stance on that changing, and do not want to depend on any app for any purpose, especially one as important as refueling my car.
I think I'm going to end up getting a PHEV and kicking the can down the road, so to speak.
Fwiw, consider your exact needs and uses. I have yet to use a public level 2, and only a couple of DC fast chargers. It might be easy enough to locate a DCFC that accepts cards when the need arises, but you will lose the convenience and price of a level 2. But even in that case, the cost savings of a BEV overall probably more than cover it
Yeah, my use case has changed considerably in the last 5 years, and trying to think ahead another 5 is giving me a headache.
I used to drive 120 miles per day, minimum. Then I bought a house closer to work and would only drive 120 miles per month. A year after that, I was offered the option to work full time remote, so now I may drive 120 miles every 3 months. But I don't have any guarantee I won't be forced back into the office on a whim or have to relocate, so trying to imagine my situation 5 years from now is a bit challenging.
That's why, after seeing some answers here and my aversion to relying on apps, I'm leaning toward a PHEV for my next upgrade and giving the charging networks more time to standardize and build out over the next half decade.
With such low mileage, can I ask why you're looking to buy a new vehicle at all? That's low enough that it's actually significantly cheaper to just take Lyft everywhere. I understand wanting to have a car, but at that point it seems like an enormous waste of money to buy new.
Not trying to start a /c/fuckcars thread here, lol, but...
The low mileage I drive now is my current situation, but I can't guarantee it's going to stay that way. I also prefer to not have to wait on taxis, Uber, Lyft, car rentals, etc and "just go" at my convenience. I live in the suburbs, so everything is still out of walking range and would be a trek even on a bike. Plus, sometimes it's nice to just get in and go for a drive (I live in a crappy red state, but we have beautiful scenery haha).
I'm looking to go full EV, eventually, so I can put solar panels on my garage to keep it topped off and cover my usual low-mileage day-to-day driving (supplemented with utility power when needed).
Now I'm leaning toward a PHEV in the short run since my state taxes hybrids and EVs like crazy, and a PHEV would cover my day-to-day driving in EV mode while being in the same "tax" bracket as my current hybrid. A full EV would have a larger yearly fee.
Don't misunderstand, I certainly understand the desire to have a car. What I'm asking is why you are looking to replace the one you have.
BTW, in my shitty red state (Ohio), those fees are applied when you renew your registration. If you renew for 5 years (the max) right before purchase and then transfer that registration, you can avoid 5 years of those extra fees. May or may not help in your situation.
Mostly because I've been wanting to go EV for a while now. This car has been and continues to be amazing, but when the time comes to replace it, I want to have my research done and have something in mind. Public charging experience was one of my outstanding research questions for EV ownership. I said 1-2 years in the post, but it's probably more like 2-3 years out if I'm being realistic (unless something catastrophic/unexpected happens to this car).
That's how WV does it too, but I can only renew for 2 years at a time. I'll keep that in mind and see if something like it is possible. Good tip!
I expect the landscape for EVs to change significantly in the next few years. With the announcement of NACS and numerous manufacturers getting onboard, that breaks down a barrier for many people. There's also a lot of growing pains that I expect to start being resolved.
The big one is charger maintenance- right now, Tesla is the only one taking it seriously. The rest subcontract it out with mediocre (at best) results. With the rapid expansion of DC Fast Charging (every Walmart near me has or is getting a bank of Electricity America chargers, truck stops on several major interstates near me are getting them, etc).
As for your concern about apps being required, I'm not sure. Tesla and its fans are the ones really, really pushing for required apps, plug to charge, etc. they call it "a seamless experience". But with other brands rising, I don't see the same mentality from people that own Bolts or Mustangs. Charging companies and whatnot would absolutely love to Hoover up your data if they can, so who knows...
Another pain point is starting to be unraveled now, too. Fast Charging hasn't really been very fast because the batteries can't handle it. There are a few models, such as the Hyundai Ionic, that have 800v batteries that can fast charge at 350 kW. Combine that with DCFC expansion into truck stops, and it can easily fit into the usual breaks of a standard road trip.
Anyway, all of that rambling aside, I would highly advise keeping an open mind and watching developments in this space. The answer today will probably not be the answer when it comes time to buy.
Oh, absolutely. Those are all pain points I've been noticing in my research, and we just haven't quite overcome them on a large enough scale. Yet. I'm also optimistic those are going to resolve in the next few years.
Hopefully the Bolt/Mustang crowd win the wars. I'm not an "app" person and will probably never be lol. Taking an extra 8 seconds to run my debit card + PIN is not an insurmountable obstacle it seems to be for the Tesla crowd haha. The only integration I want between my phone and my car is Bluetooth audio and handsfree. For everything else, give me tactile, physical buttons and keep the touch screens and tech companies far away.
I've only ever used Superchargers (I have a PHEV, but there's no need to charge that away from home). The Supercharger just talks directly to the car and handles it through your Tesla account/app. Once most cars are using the NACS connector in a year or two, I assume this will be how it works for them too.
App-based billing? No thanks. lol
I guess my point is that you don't really DO anything. You don't have to fire up an app and log in and shit. The charger talks to the car when you plug it in and it just goes. Not sure what your hang-up is with apps (no judgement here, but clearly there is one) but in this case it's pretty seamless and a lot more convenient than some other custom payment apps.
Oh, yeah, I got that. But I'd read (either a long time ago or incorrectly) that it needed to be actively connected to the internet to authorize the payment (e.g. Google Wallet, etc).
Not sure what your hang-up is with apps
Lol. I've been a tech enthusiast all my life, but years ago I had my "turn it around, we've gone too far" moment with regard to apps. 99% of them could and should be websites and ask for every permission under the sun. Nah, just let me swipe my card and enter my PIN. Takes like 5 seconds.
You really don’t have much of a choice, especially going PHEV.
The chargepoint app is going to be your friend for standard AC charging in a lot of the country.
If you go full BEV, evgo and Electrify America generally let you pay at the station with a credit card, but Tesla’s network is just going to be a lot more convenient if you’re doing any serious driving, and they’re going to be app/in-car payment based (the V4 chargers will support card but aren’t really being deployed right now)
I can grudgingly understand Tesla's network may be app based and tied to their infrastructure, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I'm leaning toward going PHEV in hopes that the EA and more "generic" charging stations get built out in the mean time and that they support more traditional payments (at least I'm not insisting on writing a check lol). At least once my EV range is exhausted, I can just use the ICE until I can charge up at home.
Plus, I live in a yeehaw state that has hefty hybrid and EV "taxes" added to the yearly registration fees. I currently drive a hybrid, and the extra fees I pay are the same whether it's a PHEV or traditional hybrid. A PHEV would definitely give me more bang for my buck; a full EV would cost even more in fees.
I live in a yeehaw state that has hefty hybrid and EV "taxes" added to the yearly registration fees
Yeah between that and the removal of the inspection (but keeping the fee) I'm just like "fuck you" and not registering my car anymore.
Completely valid and understandable!
So just a heads up, a lot (most? almost all?) of PHEVs can’t do fast charging with CCS/NACS so that immediately rules out all of EA, evgo, Tesla’s superchargers, and a number of other networks.
ChargePoint has an enormous number of AC charging stations for use though.
Good to know. The more I research BEVs, the more I realize how much I don't know. lol
Most of the PHEVs I've looked at top out around 50 or so miles of EV range, and that pretty much covers all of my day to day driving with some to spare. For extended trips, I don't see myself topping off the HV battery unless I'm lodging overnight or something.
So just a heads up, a lot (most? almost all?) of PHEVs can’t do fast charging with CCS/NACS
Does that mean they can't charge at all from those, or they just charge slower? Thinking of like if a hotel had a charging station, for example.
Glad I posted this because I was just assuming the charge stations worked like gas pumps and I'd just swipe, wait a bit, and go. Apparently not lol.
This is going to be a bit long. If you want a better explanation, here is an excellent (albeit a little outdated) video on the subject: https://youtu.be/Iyp_X3mwE1w
BEVs are a little more complicated, but not that much. There's 3 main levels of charging to be aware of.
Level 1- 120v AC charging. Connect to a standard (and hopefully isolated) wall outlet. Your charging cable delivers this straight to your car, which then converts it to DC to charge the battery. Also known as trickle charging, it adds about 3 miles of range for every hour spent charging. It is almost never seen outside of home charging.
Level 2- 208/240v AC charging. Similar to the above, except you either have a 240v outlet or the charging cable) station is hardwired directly. Specs vary, but common configs are 5-10 times (7-12 kW) as fast as level 1. Still delivers AC directly to your car. This is also what you see at hotels, parking garages, etc where you are not going to be sitting there waiting on it. The required infrastructure is only some heavy-duty AC electrical cables and a way to bill you. Levels 1 and 2 use the J-1772 connector. Tesla calls theirs Destination Chargers.
Level 3- DC Fast Charging. This is an interesting idea- why limit yourself to the (relatively) puny charger you have onboard the vehicle? Or bypassing the normal limits of how thick a cable must be? These chargers, using the Combined Charging System (CCS) standard have an extra set of very thick pins that connect directly to the battery system. They deliver as much as 350 kW (depending on car model/capabilities) of DC power, straight into the battery system. They also have water-cooled cables to deliver that much power without an unwieldy cable. These are what you see at truck stops and places where people are going to be waiting for the charge to complete. Tesla calls theirs Superchargers.
The Tesla connector was recently opened up to the world as the North American Charging Standard, or NACS. Many other manufacturers have already announced a switch to this. For the J-1772 connector (levels 1 and 2), this is basically the same thing in a different shape. It's even electrically compatible, so a dumb adapter will work. But what's different is that the charging pins are much, much bigger. It can handle a level 3 DCFC on the same pins, albeit with some additional circuitry to handle these different modes.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/Iyp_X3mwE1w
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I'll be completely upfront about my biases here: I'm not really sure PHEVs make a lot of sense. You're getting a small battery pack that'll still be expensive to replace (if you can find the packs later on) with the maintenance of a gas car. Personally I'm not really sold, but hey, if the numbers work out for you, have fun
I'd say if your current car is on it's last legs, go ahead and get what you want, but if you can hold out for a couple of years, I'd suggest maybe waiting to see if prices on full-battery EVs come down any.
Most of the PHEVs I’ve looked at top out around 50 or so miles of EV range, and that pretty much covers all of my day to day driving with some to spare. For extended trips, I don’t see myself topping off the HV battery unless I’m lodging overnight or something.
Yeah, in a PHEV your charging is almost entirely going to be when you're at home or staying somewhere for a few hours (shopping, hotels).
Does that mean they can’t charge at all from those, or they just charge slower? Thinking of like if a hotel had a charging station, for example.
They can't charge at all at DC Fast Chargers. If you see a bank of chargers out in the middle of a parking lot somewhere, odds are you can't use them. If you see some chargers on the wall of a parking garage or on some posts in front of a hotel, generally you should be fine.
If you get a few minutes this evening, take a look at Plugshare (https://www.plugshare.com/). Go to Filters on the left, scroll down to "Vehicles and Plugs", and make sure only "J-1772" is selected. These are the places you'll be able to charge.
Glad I posted this because I was just assuming the charge stations worked like gas pumps and I’d just swipe, wait a bit, and go. Apparently not lol.
So with a PHEV, unfortunately not really. You'll need a couple of hours to charge a PHEV at a charging station. A full battery EV can only get a gas station-like experience because the DC Fast Chargers can push an insane amount of power very quickly.
My current hybrid is in great shape, so no rush other than wanting more EV range and to get less screwed on the backwards fees I have to pay (hybrid and PHEV are same fee bracket). I've got a Ford Fusion Hybrid and was looking at simply upgrading to the Energi which is the PHEV version of it. (I absolutely regret not getting that model when I bought this one, but at the time, I didn't have anywhere to charge it).
Barring something unexpected or catastrophic happening, I can definitely wait a few years and reassess. The ultimate goal is still a BEV, but I may need to wait a bit for things to standardize across the board (we're getting there, though!).
I'm sure you've seen the figures that the average American drives ~40 miles a day. That's where the ~50 mile range PHEV battery comes from.
The question is what happens when you need to go further than that. On early EVs (like the GM EV-1), the answer was honestly to just find another car. That limited its appeal to just being a commuter/second car.
PHEVs answered that by including a gas drivetrain, although some now are just a gas generator. BEVs answered that by including a giant battery and enabling fast charging (as a concept, not necessarily as a product)
Yeah, the 40-50 mile/day range is my current situation which is why I'm considering a PHEV. Wasn't always the case, but still, 40-50 miles of EV range will certainly add up over time.
When I got this car, I was first looking for a ~~Bolt~~ Volt but no dealerships around here carried them. Not long after, GM discontinued it. Luckily, I think I read the other day they're bringing it back, so that may be an option soon.
Can’t charge at all. PHEVs don’t really need fast charging anyway.
NACS is just a connector. Don't expect anything else to change just because they swapped a connector.
Pretty sure they said they will have access to the Supercharger network. I don't see Tesla adding card readers to every supercharger. I think it's far more likely that the cars will talk to the superchargers just like Teslas do.
Pretty sure they said they will have access to the Supercharger network
Who?
I don't see Tesla adding card readers to every supercharger.
They aren't.
I think it's far more likely that the cars will talk to the superchargers just like Teslas do.
"More likely" than what? Tesla doesn't need to add payment terminals in order for other companies to do it. The payment system is not determined by the connector. It's literally just an interface to connect wires.
I've only rented an ev, but only about half the time they have successfully taken a cc. Either they were broken, or it was just missing.
A lot of them have apps, which is very annoying as a renter, but if you own the car it should be less of an issue.
Afaik you don't actually need to purchase a subscription to use them.
Thanks! Good to know, even if disappointing. Broken I can understand (people are the worst, after all), but missing seems like like the operator chose not to add them.
Yeah, the apps are a non-starter for me. My dislike for them aside, I'm stuck with T-Mobile as my carrier. If a butterfly flaps its wings between my phone and the tower, I lose all service. lol. Not exactly something I want to rely on if I need to charge up.
You don’t need your phone to be operational for the app to work. It’s just like any of the smartphone app platforms… you have a card on file associated with the account. The car is recognized when you plug in to charge, then automatically charges the account when it is used for the amount of charge you take. You can set it up on your phone, in the car, or on a computer, but only need the car to charge.
Tesla is rolling out a subscription for $13.99 a month for up to 5 charging sessions per day, though. I’ve been traveling a lot and have been charging 3-4 times a day for 50-60$ total. It’ll be nice to save even more money with the sub, but that wouldn’t be worth it if you don’t travel a lot.
I’ve had mine for 4 years and, up until this year when I started traveling, I never used a public charger. Charging at home was always cheap and easy and I never drove more than 250 miles in a day. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how easy route planning automatically plans the most efficient route with stops to charge along the way. I had a bit of range anxiety when I started out, but that was mostly from my ignorance of how it would all work out. Lately I’ve been driving through the mountains in winter and haven’t had any problems.
Okay, that's different and less awful than what I've heard about the app billing. If I can set up the account/payment method on thier website with my laptop and not have to have my phone involved or functional at all to charge, I could be on board with that. Thanks for that bit of info. Some of the stuff I've read may be a bit dated.
Definitely don't think I'd benefit from a subscription like that unless my life situation changes, but interesting to know it's out there if it does.
Thanks!
From here:
In-car charging apps
You might not think of it as an app, but the software inside your EV is perhaps the most fundamental charging app. Your EV’s in-car charging software shares many of the features of public and home EV charging apps, including the ability to find and navigate to public charging stations and manage charging from within your vehicle.
The interior of a modern car showing an app built-in the dashboard.Because it is built into your car, an in-car app often benefits from a direct data connection to your vehicle’s systems, allowing it to tailor recommendations based on real-time battery information. Beyond the built-in software, many EV manufacturers also offer companion smartphone apps to let you receive information and control charging remotely.
So that's an option, though it doesn't cover payment. Later in the same page:
Payment options
If you want to use your home charging app to also manage your public charging sessions, it’s essential to check what payment options are offered to avoid an unpleasant surprise when trying to charge.
Depending on the app and public charging network, you might be able to link your bank account and have payment taken directly or receive a monthly bill for all your charging.
Some apps can even allow you to pay for charging without an account using your credit or debit card. While more flexible, it’s worth remembering that pay-as-you-go tariffs can often be higher than members’ ones, so creating an account can be worth it if you use public charging frequently.
So an option here might be to get an old smartphone and load it with the apps over your home wifi, then hook them up to your credit/debit card or bank account. Put the phone in your glovebox or someplace when you're taking a longer trip. When you need to charge the car, plug the smartphone into the phone charger in your car, turn it on, use wifi / Bluetooth / NFC to connect to the car charger, and have the appropriate app deduct from your bank account / credit / debit card, then turn it off again.
So an option here might be to get an old smartphone and load it with the apps over your home wifi, then hook them up to your credit/debit card or bank account. Put the phone in your glovebox or someplace when you're taking a longer trip. When you need to charge the car, plug the smartphone into the phone charger in your car, turn it on, use wifi / Bluetooth / NFC to connect to the car charger, and have the appropriate app deduct from your bank account / credit / debit card, then turn it off again.
Thanks for the detailed reply, but yeah, lol, I'm not doing that. I really want to go full EV, but not that badly. I'm with the Boomers on this one. I already have a payment method with me that's linked to my bank account, and it doesn't require any of that hoopla.