Eduardo Motta

That's true, but sitting in a warehouse is costing someone money and I'm sure they were more than happy to sell the books even if they knew they'd eventually get destroyed.

Sure, thats a possibility, I wasnt arguing otherwise.

But the other thing is, what should these companies do instead? They scraped the internet and got skewered for that. They pirated books and got in trouble for that. Now they are legally purchasing books to scan.

For me, them doing sketchy and illegal shit, mostly getting away with it and then charging you for access to said ill-gotten gains is a valid reason for people to be upset at them, rage inducing, even.

That aside the equivalent of mass book burning isn't a good look regardless of legality, even less so when its the same people that did the sketchy shit before.

There is no benefit of the doubt left.

I can see how someone could get to:

"all they do is sketchy shit so even though this might look legit, let's vocally show our disdain for them and anything they are doing"

I detailed my thoughts and arguments, feel free to address those directly.

if you want to ignore most of the reply to argue against a stance i wasn't taking there's not much of a conversation to be had here.

2/2

I agree completely, which is why I say it’s not the right word. I am totally against people saying homosexuality is a mental illness because it implies it’s something that needs to be corrected. I do see it as something that deviates from the norm, but in a way as harmless and inconsequential as left-handedness.

And i don't disagree (aside from the discussion on "norm" as stated above).

I thought I had done a good enough job of establishing upfront what I meant when I said that I was pro LGBT and was coming at this from a point of trying to understand, but I the backlash clearly shows that was not enough.

That's not necessarily true, people are going to disagree and misunderstand especially on a subject such as this, all you can do is engage in good faith and work with the results of that.

If you want to refine your explanations, that's fine also, but you aren't going to get 100% success rates, especially on the internet.

I find it frustrating having to tiptoe around topics like this and always try to explain myself because people are so quick to look for the bad, but I suppose that is the current world we live in.

All we can do is our best, if that's not enough for some people, so be it.

This kind of communication is a skill, it'll get more refined over time.

It’s a sad fact that there are a lot of people trying to opress anyone who is different, and I can’t exect strangers on the internet to know me or what I believe in.

True, so manage your expectations accordingly.

If you go in to it with an understanding of the potential outcomes you won't be blindsided.

I’ve done a lot of explaining myself, but I’m still not conviced my original assumption is incorrect. I still think that homosexuality has a biological/mental aspect because gay people say that they were born that way, it’s not a choice, it’s who they are. I didn’t choose to be straight so that makes perfect sense to me. I also know that the people who feel that way are in a minority, therefore something is happening mentally, biologically, I don’t know, to a small subset of people making them an abnormality.

The conversation about a potential biological/genetic component to homosexuality is incredibly charged for various reasons but mainly because of the consequences of either outcome.

If it turns out there is a genetic component then think of all the things the fundamentalist nutjobs would want to do with that information.

And given that fundamentalist nutjobs aren't know for their clear headed and rational thinking they wouldn't understand (or would wilfully ignore) that you probably can't just point to a "gay gene" as a means of identification so not only would they being doing stupid shit, they'd be doing stupid shit that doesn't make any sense.

What I HAVE learned is I need to be more cautious of using the word abnormal which goes full circle to my question on if this is an issue of language. Most people really don’t like words that black and white say they’re different, because while it may be true, it can be used by people who do not feel like deviations from the norm are acceptable, and they will attack them for being the “other”. This is just a very polarizing topic and can cause people who say they’re on the same side to get at each other assuming the worst, which is unfortunate.

I think it's more complicated than just language, though language is a major component on the internet.

There are sometimes ways to present the same information in a similar way that makes use of linguistic and societal context to convey the meaning of what you were saying while downplaying some of the the negative aspects of how it could be received.

I suspect an issue you might be having is that at a glance they'd probably both look the same to you, so with a choice between four words and two sentences the more concise seems like the better option.

Though i might be projecting.

I don't actually think that's the issue here however, i agree it's just a charged subject and people are people.

1/2

Thank you for taking the time to write such a well thought out comment. I’ll try to reply to it but honestly the amount of downvotes I’m getting for trying to understand something is a bit discouraging so I don’t think I’ll be keeping the conversation going much longer.

No problem, i recognise the style of question because it's how i would approach it.

As you correctly noted a few times, this is an emotionally charged topic so a higher than normal amount of people will interpret the question through the lens of their emotions

Even with the best intentions and most detailed prefaces you should still manage your expectations on the types and tone of replies you will get to such a question.

I think of it this way :

• if if think they are misunderstanding the question i am posing then they are not actually attacking me or my position, they are attacking what they think is me or my position.
  • Then it's just a case of determining if I'm willing to put forth the effort required to try and bridge that gap, which varies.
• If i think they are approaching in bad faith, that saves me some effort because i can just ignore/block them.
• If i think there is a genuine engagement, that's good, even if they disagree I'm getting the discussion i was looking for.

In more concise wording, people are going to people, don't let them foist their issues on to you, engage when you want, disengage when you don't.

At least that's what works for me.

I’m making a pretty general statement so I don’t have numbers to back anything up, but I would be very surprised if we didn’t have basic statistics on how many people identify as gay, or are diagnosed with ADD, etc. So I think we do understand norms, but you’re right this always changes with increased research and study.

I do see what you mean, what i was saying is that the understanding of "norm" isn't very clearly defined in these sorts of cases.

Eye colour is relatively easy (within defined colour brackets) you can look at the single item of data and categorise so it's easy to partition the population based on something like that.

With things like mental health diagnoses we can't even reliably agree upon what brackets to apply so it's significantly more difficult to apply the idea of a norm.

in turn that makes the idea of abnormal equally difficult to define.

I did this on purpose. I’m not saying any of these are similar at all, just that they’re attributes that might make us unique and as far as I’m aware (since I’m not religious) these are functions of brain chemestry. Somone who has a very creative mind can be encouraged through their upbringing and surroundings to use it for music, arts, etc but I do think think there is something physical in the brain there. I’m not a neuroscientist so I don’t know how much is attributed to genetics, hormones, etc.

I agree with them all being functions of brain chemistry.

Though i don't rule out something we'd consider supernatural or spiritual because honestly i don't really know much of anything to be definitively ruling out something like that.

I don't subscribe to them in my daily life, but who knows.

The answer to most of this is "it's complicated" and we're basically using best guesses at this point, these guesses are based on scientific principles, but all that science really is is a semi-concrete method of defining and refining what our best guesses currently are.

What i was trying to convey is that while all of these things could be considered "attributes", in reality it's much more nuanced than it seems, musical talent has many forms, as does ADD and sexual orientation/preference.

Honestly i'd consider most brain stuff to just be unique expressions of an individual, rather than a set of labels, but that isn't very helpful in most circumstances.

Ah i think i see.

That quote is not from my post, i think you meant to reply to the OP.

I don't think understand what you are asking, would you mind adding a bit more detail please ?

Wait, seriously....no..that can't possibly be true...

You do understand that the word trump exists outside of the name.... Right?

Oh my, im glad you didn't read the rest of it, so many complicated words.

Good luck, you are absolutely going to need it

sure. But the indications so far are that it is fine.

no, the indications so far are inconclusive.

like the original indications for asbestos were inconclusive or lead pipes/paint.

But it seems you are deep into your magical thinking so i doubt anything I've said will make a difference to you.

I hope it works out for you.

It's not considered bad , but it is a distraction, there's supposed to be no communication between attendees.

It's supposed to be full introspection, afaict.

Don't know if its the same in all places but men and women were completely separate in the one I went to.

Even if you went with your wife you'd not really be there with her, you'd be two people in the same place at the same time, not communicating.

It's not really a relaxing holiday kind of place.

In this one instance they are actually losing their money, maybe, nearly a decade after the fact. Up until now he's been living it relatively large.

I'd also put money on him still having a significantly higher amount of money to throw around, even assuming he loses the string of appeals and other legal bullshit he's undoubtedly going to pull for probably the next decade.

For me specifically, the setup and config oftentimes is what I'm doing with the computer, the learning and knowledge gained from the practice is what I'm after, which is good because it's significantly less fun than it used to be.

Admittedly mine is probably a non-standard case and it ties in with other things in my life.

Condolences on your loss.