I do in fact have a calculator (phone) in my pockets at all time to do menial math for me

Except it gives wrong answers for order of operations expressions, because it was written by a programmer who didn't make sure he was doing the Maths correctly.

I fully agree that if it comes down to “left to right”

It never does

But I’ve just shown why that “rule” is a common part

No you didn't. You showed you didn't understand the rules. Doing addition first for 10-1+1 is 10+1-1, not 10-(1+1). It literally means add all positive numbers together first, which are +10 and +1, as per Maths textbooks...

Note in the above simplification of the coefficients we have 6-11+5-7+2=6+5+2-11-7=13-18=-5, and not, as you claim 6-(11+5)-(7+2)=6-16-9=-19

because it is so weird and quite esoteric

It's a convention, not a rule, and as such can be completely ignored by those who understand the rules. See literal textbook example

You teach how to solve equations, but not the fundamentals

Nope. We teach the fundamentals. Adults not remembering them doesn't mean they weren't taught. Just pick up a Maths textbook. It's all in there. Always has been.

Fundamentals, most of the time, are taught in universities

No they're not. They only teach order of operations from a remedial point of view. Most of them forget about The Distributive Law. I've seen multiple Professors be told by their students that they were wrong.

it’s not really math in a sense that you don’t understand the underlying principles

The Constructivist learners have no trouble at all understanding it.

Nope.

Yep!

There’s only commutation, association, distribution, and identity.

And many proofs of other rules, which you've decided to omit mentioning.

It doesn’t matter in which order you apply any of those properties, the result will stay correct

But the order you apply the operations does matter, hence the proven rules to be followed.

2×2×(2-2)/2

Notably you picked an example that has no addition, subtraction, or distribution in it. That's called cherry-picking.

Completely different order, yet still correct

Yep, because you cherry-picked a simple example where it doesn't matter. It's never going to matter when you only pick operations which have the same precedence.

My response to the rest goes back to the aforementioned

...cherry-picking.

No, I am saying you are wrong

And textbooks, calculators, accountants, and @sxan@midwest.social, who also explicitly pointed out that what you did was 10-(1+1). I see you didn't read the textbook either then.

No one else

Nope, also all the other parties listed above, who all agree with me

The saddest, and funniest, part is that you are so egotistical that you don’t see why you are wrong

That would be you again, after it has been explained to you many times, by me, other commentators, and Maths textbooks.

Maybe you will get it one day, but I won’t be there for it

Again that applies to you only, the only one here who thinks 10-1+1=8 when doing addition first, even though 11-1=10.

Self reflection is good.

How do you know when you haven't tried it yet? If you had, you would realise you also owe @cabron_offsets@lemmy.world an apology too

I know it is wrong, which is why I am telling you what my mistake was originally

But failing to understand what your actual mistake was, coming up with -1+1=-2, and not -1+1=-0

The fact that you still don’t get it demonstrates your complete lack of understanding

That would be you, the one who thinks order matters, and that -1+1=-2, not -0.

Order does matter

Nope!

+10-1+1=10

+10+1-1=10

-1+10+1=10

+1+10-1=10

+1-1+10=10

-1+1+10=10

Put those all into a calculator, and/or ask an accountant about it.

that order is left to right.

And yet, going RIGHT TO LEFT +1-1+10=0+10=10, same answer... though I have no doubt you think it's +1-1+10=+1-11=-10

The original equation is written correctly

and 10-(1+1) isn't, hence your continued wrong answer

My mistake was doing the addition before the subtraction when the equation reads 10 - 1 + 1

No, your mistake was doing 10-(1+1) where the question reads 10-1+1, and not +10+1-1 <== this is addition first, you add all the positive numbers together first, then do the negative numbers This is literally the textbook way to do it

According to you 6a²b-11a²b+5a²b-7a²b+2a²b=6a²b-16a²b-9a²b=-19a²b, and yet the textbook quite clearly states it's -5a²b, which is because it's 6a²b+5a²b+2a²b-11a²b-7a²b=13a²b-18a²b, and NOT 6a²b-(11a²b+5a²b)-(7a²b+2a²b)

10-(1+1)=10-1-1 which is what you did, which is not 10-1+1. You "added" 1 to -1, and got -2 instead of 0

How are you still not getting this?

It's not me who's not getting it.

No it wasn’t.

Yes it was. Read the textbooks.

The original equation is written correctly but the logic is incorrect

No your logic is incorrect. You're incorrectly adding brackets to it.

in order to make it work the way I declared you have to do the equation x - y + z doing the y + z first

By putting it in brackets which is not how addition is done first. Doing addition first for x - y + z is x + z - y, not x - (y + z)

which was the mistake doing addition then subtraction

No, the mistake was you put the addition in brackets, -(1+1)=-2, not -1+1=+1-1=0. As per the textbook, the sum of any 2 numbers can only have 1 value. That 1 value for -1 and +1 is 0. -1+1=0, +1-1=0, not -1+1=-2

doing addition then subtraction instead of addition and subtraction in order from left to right

The rules are you either do addition then subtraction, OR you do left to right. There is no such thing as addition then subtraction left to right.

Addition then subtraction 10+1-1=11-1=10

Left to right 10-1+1=9+1=10

What you did 10-(1+1)=10-2=8

I see you are still being a bad teacher

says bad student, who didn't try what the teacher said to try

who refuses to listen

that would be you again. You didn't try it on a calculator, you didn't ask an accountant. You didn't even read and understand my examples. Read the textbook - it's not just me telling you this.

I am not continuing with you

Because you're unwilling to admit you're wrong and refuse to try what the teacher and textbook have told you to do, and also refuse to ask an accountant about it

The fact that you still don’t get it demonstrates bad faith

Nope, that's you again. You're even arguing with literal textbook examples.

willful ignorance, and an unwarranted superiority complex

Also you, thinking you're above Maths teachers, calculators, accountants, and Maths textbooks. According to you all of us are wrong, and only you are right. Get a grip

10-1+1=10 only if you don’t the addition first 1 + 1 = 2 - 10 = 8

Nope, yet again you just did 10-(1+1), which is wrong for 10+1-1. It gives 10 in any order. 10+1-1=11-1=10 <== did addition first, got 10. Accountants would have a nightmare if order mattered. "Did we receive this payment first, or this invoice? The order matters! ARGH!"

which was my mistake, which I already stated.

No, your mistake was adding brackets, 10-(1+1) ISN'T how to do addition first. 10+1-1 is. Ask an accountant! 😂 As you discovered 10-(1+1)=10-1-1, which isn't 10+1-1, nor 10-1+1. 10-1-1=8, which is what you did - 10-1-1=10-(1+1) - 10-1+1=10, 10+1-1=10.

I see you still didn't try it on a calculator yet then

Enjoy the egg on your face bud

None on my face. My students do very well in their tests. How about you? BTW try it on a calculator and guess what answer you'll get. hint: it'll be the same answer regardless of which order you do it 😂

To save you some trouble, here's the results from my calculator...

10+1-1=10

10-1+1=10

-1+10+1=10

+1+10-1=10

-1+1+10=10

1-1+10=10

It is though. Here’s a link to buy a printed copy:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They print it out when someone places an order! 😂

You keep mentioning textbooks but haven’t actually shown any that support you. I have

No you haven't. You've shown 2 websites, both updated by random people.

I’ll trust the PhD teaching a university course on the subject

I already pointed out to you that they DON'T teach order of operations at University. It's taught in high school. Dude on page you referred to was teaching Set theory, not order of operations.

over the nobody on the internet

Don't know who you're referring to. I'm a high school Maths teacher, hence the dozens of textbooks on the topic.

Talking about yourself in the third person is weird

Proves I'm not weird then doesn't it.

Even your nonsense about a silent “+”

You call what's in textbooks nonsense? That explains a lot! 😂

is really just leaving off the leading 0 in the equation 0+2

And yet the textbook says nothing of the kind. If I had 2+3, which is really +2+3 (see above textbook), do I, according to you, have to write 0+2+0+3? Enquiring minds want to know. And do I have to put another plus in front of the zero, as per the textbook, +0+2+0+3

Because addition is a binary operator

No it isn't 😂

Only the ones that operate on two inputs.

Now you're getting it. Multiply and divide take 2 inputs, add and subtract take 1.

Some examples of unary operators are factorial, absolute value, and trig functions.

Actually none of those are operators. The first 2 are grouping symbols (like brackets, exponents, and vinculums), the last is a function (it was right there in the name). The only unary operators are plus and minus.

I can’t keep trying to explain the same thing to you

You very nearly got it that time though! 😂

at least less wrong

Again, it's not me who's wrong.

I feel bad for your students if you cannot see why you are wrong here

My students know I'm right. Everyone's students know that's right. It's only adults who've forgotten the rules who get this wrong.

Actually, it is. Written by a PhD and used in a college course.

Yeah there's an issue with them having forgotten the basic rules, since they don't actually teach them (except in a remedial way). Why do you think I keep trying to bring you back to actual Maths textbooks?

May want to work on your own reading comprehension.

Nope. It's still not a textbook. Sounds more like a higher education version of Wikipedia.

The facts disagree

With you, yes.

it doesn’t change the underlying issue that it’s defined by man.

The notation is, the rules aren't.

In the absence of all your books (which you clearly don’t understand anyway based on our discussion of unary vs binary)

Says person who doesn't understand the difference between unary and binary. Apparently EVERYTHING is binary according to you (and your website). 😂

order of operations only exists because we all agree to it

It exists whether we agree with it or not. Don't obey it, get wrong answers.

I said it’s a mistake to think one of them has a precedence over the other

And I said it's not a mistake. You still get the right answer.

You’re arguing the same point I’m making?

No, I'm telling you that prioritising either isn't a mistake. Mistakes give wrong answers. Prioritising either doesn't give wrong answers.

Order of operations is not a hard rule

Yes it is.

It is a convention.

Left to right is a convention. Left Associativity is a hard rule. Left to right is a convention which obeys the rule of Left Associativity.

It’s something agreed upon

It's something that is a natural consequence of the definitions of the operators in the first place. As soon as Multiplication was defined in terms of Addition, that guaranteed we would always have to do Multiplication before Addition to get right answers.

is it not something that is universally true

Yes it is! All of Maths is universally true! 😂

Solve for X X^2=4

You know that's no longer an order of operations problem, right?