ToastedPlanet

joined 2 years ago

She is off to a great start. Harris already took a stab at it tonight. The fact neither Harris nor Walz are zionists is a relief.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/aug/22/kamala-harris-dnc-night-4?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66c803fc8f0841a2a14c4dd4#block-66c803fc8f0841a2a14c4dd4

The vice-president said she would “always stand up for Israel’s right to defend itself”, but also spoke of Gaza, saying “the scale of suffering is heartbreaking”.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 4 months ago (16 children)

As far as I can tell, the uncommitted movement hasn’t made any official statements supporting Harris or anything to that effect on their website.

The Uncommitted Movement do not need to indirectly communicate with the DNC via their website. They requested to speak at the DNC and eventually got a no. If the DNC wanted additional assurances they could have just asked. The DNC didn't even want to look at the speech. They analyzed fewer facts than we are now.

So the DNC has to trust this group’s policy is going to be announced by this speaker at the DNC with zero mechanisms to make sure things go as planned.

The same mechanisms as anybody the DNC works with. Again, the speaker is a Democrat. Specifically a Democrat state representative in Georgia. The DNC should be able to trust this person.

Outside of a few goofs, most voters understand the Dems will be better for Palestine than trump.

Those goofs are people whose votes the Democrats will need to win the election in November. This speech was an easy way to win them over.

Even if the uncommitted movement made a serious pledge, a lot of the genocide Joe crowd would just call them party hacks or whatever.

Which the Uncommitted Movement did. They released the speech to Mother Jones. We need to tell people that the Uncommited Movement has done this.

At the same time, frankly, among the people most likely to actually vote (those 65+) support is incredibly favourable to Israel, even during this conflict.

The Democrats need high voter turnout to win. Swing state elections this year could be determined by younger, unlikely voters. Many younger, unlikely voters care about Palestine. So it is critical they know the Democratic Party's ticket is in the interest of Palestine.

(Unsure how old you are but you might remember the kerfuffle over Bernie in 2016 or the ridicule after Eastwood’s bizzare empty chair speech. A successful convention is one that avoids those embarrassing moments at all costs.)

Those were 8 and 12 years ago respectively. So recent. The kerfuffle you are referring to is a major source of grievance for the kind of people who would otherwise support the current Democratic Party's ticket.

Your argument misses that these examples are in fact the opposite problems. The DNC went out of their way to put down Bernie's campaign. Where as the RNC were completely blindsided by Clint Eastwood's improv performance. The RNC couldn't be bothered to get Clint Eastwood to commit to an agreed on speech.

The DNC again went out of their way to block a speech that could have benefited them and is yet another unforced error from Democrats. Rather than allowing the DNC mistake cost the Democrats another election we should inform people what an actual pro-Palestinian movement thinks.

Again, negligible possible gains, huge risk, avoiding this is a no brainer.

It is a no brainer, but not in the way your argument is describing it. No matter how many times your argument minimizes the benefits of and invents risks for this speech for Democrats doesn't make it true. The DNC's analysis is a moot point anyway. We can see that this speech is a useful tool against people wrongly using the topic as a wedge issue. We should use the speech.

I don’t imagine we’re going to agree on this but I appreciate your input.

Your argument's analysis isn't based on the available facts. Your argument invents a 'reasonable' DNC response when we are in the dark about the actual reasoning. Why imagine a world where the DNC did the right thing when we can simply do the right thing for them. Show people the speech.

The Uncommitted in Uncommitted Movement referred to marking the uncommitted option on Democratic Party primary ballots in certain states. The Uncommitted Movement did this. It was never their intention to contest the DNC ticket in the general election.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago (19 children)

There is no serious risk of a deviation in giving the speech. This is isn't a speech by protesters holding 'Killer Kamala' signs. This is the speech from the Uncommitted Movement. The speaker is a Democrat state representative herself. The Uncommitted Movement made their point in the Democratic Party's primary election and now are supporting the Democratic ticket in the general election.

An endorsement by a major pro-Palestinian movement in the US would be a huge upside to Kamala Harris' campaign. Again, not just any speaker saying nice things. A Palestinian woman who is a Democrat and state representative. Who, on behalf of a large pro-Palestinian movement, says things that would turn this issue around for the Democrats.

The real downside by not airing the speech is giving more ammo to bad actors and psyops on social media platforms. Who try to make supporting Palestinians and Democrats mutually exclusive. That kind of misinformation dominating the discourse and depressing voter turnout would negatively impact the Democratic ticket.

The rational analysis is in favor of letting this speech air. I am not privy to the DNC's thought process. What could be happening is self-sabotage based on unfounded fear. Fear that is motivated by a misunderstanding of who the Uncommitted Movement is. Anyone protesting to prevent Kamala from winning the general election is either a bad actor or part of a psyop, not the Uncommitted Movement.

This is is a missed opportunity for the Democrats. However, it need not be a missed opportunity for us. Whenever someone tries to hit Kamala with this topic as a wedge issue, show them this speech. The Uncommitted Movement is with Kamala Harris.

Again, there is plenty to criticize, but it is an acknowledgement. The suffering of the Palestinians has as least been allowed into the Democratic Party's organizational knowledge.

When it's mostly the Palestinians being killed, over 40000 currently which is an underestimate, it is inaccurate to assert the magnitude of the deaths are equivalent. The magnitude of the suffering of the Palestinians and the one-sidedness of the Gaza war against the Palestinians is the Democrats' organizational ignorance that needs to be corrected for everyone's sake, especially the Palestinians.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

But you know what I’m 100% certain we shouldn’t do? Let Donald fucking Trump get into office to truly fuck things up even more.

I 100% agree. Anyone at this stage not committed to electing Kamala Harris and defeating Donald Trump is not acting in the interest of anyone except the fascists, that includes Donald Trump, in the short term. In the long term, everyone being dead to genocide and climate change benefits no one.

It’s fucking complicated. And I don’t have the answer.

In the short term, when it comes to the Gaza war, a ceasefire is the solution. The long term solution is the US recognizing Palestine as a nation state and not allowing Israel to be an exception to international law. Achieving this is easier said than done, but it is straightforward.

If Israel collapses, that will be a nightmare the likes of which we haven’t seen in a century, so we have to ensure it can defend itself by supplying it weapons. Netanyahu is a madman who wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians and is desperate to hold onto power to avoid prison

Israel's current government can collapse in the next election after a ceasefire. This would allow Israel to change course without needing it to be destroyed like Nazi Germany. That assumes of course that the far right coalition that is currently in power doesn't go completely mask off fascist to their own population and seize power by force.

so we have to stop supplying Israel with weapons.

Yes.

edit: typo

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago (21 children)

The Uncommited Movement endorses Harris in the speech. So it would actually be good for Harris. In fact going off script would be bad for the Uncommitted Movement and Palestinians by the logic provided in their speech.

But in this pain, I’ve also witnessed something profound—a beautiful, multifaith, multiracial, and multigenerational coalition rising from despair within our Democratic Party. For 320 days, we’ve stood together, demanding to enforce our laws on friend and foe alike to reach a ceasefire, end the killing of Palestinians, free all the Israeli and Palestinian hostages, and to begin the difficult work of building a path to collective peace and safety. That’s why we are here—members of this Democratic Party committed to equal rights and dignity for all. What we do here echoes around the world.

The actual Uncommitted Movement sees themselves as an integral part of the Democratic Party. They correctly assert that the Democratic Party is fighting for everyone and that everyone includes the Palestinians. Anyone who can write this speech should know that it is of the utmost importance to stay on script.

By not airing the speech the DNC is leaving Israel's genocide in the Gaza strip to be a wedge issue for bad actors. It falls to the rest of us to assert that this is not the case. There is no other secret speech that needs to be said. Free Palestine and Vote Blue No Matter Who are not statements that are at odds in the general election.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Biden said the Gaza war protests have a point. There is plenty to criticize about the DNC. This isn't one of those things.

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/20/biden-dnc-gaza-war-protesters-point

"Those protesters out in the street, they have a point. A lot of innocent people are being killed on both sides."

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

An important take away from this speech is that those two points are not in conflict with each other according to the Uncommitted Movement. Anyone trying to make it seems like supporting Palestinians and supporting Democrats are mutually exclusive does not have the interest of either group at heart.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 20 points 4 months ago

Let’s commit to each other, to electing Vice President Harris and defeating Donald Trump who uses my identity as a Palestinian as a slur.

One of the points this speech makes is that the actual Uncommited Movement supports Harris. Palestinians in this movement do not see Israel's genocide of Palestinians in the Gaza strip as a wedge issue to make Democrats lose the election.

Anyone who is using the genocide as such a wedge issue against the Democrats is not acting in the interest of the Palestinian people. As Trump has publicly stated his intention to allow Israel's government to complete their genocide of the Gaza strip. Where as Democrats are actively negotiating for a ceasefire.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 4 months ago

The OSS disagreed. They used Germans to spy on Nazi Germany.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/hitlers-nightmare-meet-americas-spies-nazi-germany-148301

Initial selections were made from several demographic POW groups, Catholics, Austrians, and those who had been assigned to punitive battalions because of their political views. Potential recruits were cleverly transitioned from the main prison population through assignment to work details. After days of observation, the candidates were given intense interviews to determine their motivation to “betray their country” by returning to Germany as American spies.

[–] ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Standing up for the rights of all people should be a winning issue for Democrats. Trans people should not be an exception to that.

I think in the past Democrats were to reluctant to fight on social issues, such as abortion. And I think the inability to push back on Republicans on these social issues cost Democrats elections. Democrats are finally fighting for a women's right to an abortion in a bold way and stating loudly that abortion is women's health care.

I'm weird. Being weird is good. Calling fascists weird is such an effective strategy because it shatters their fragile egos. They are unable to see themselves as anything other than their fictional concept of 'normal'. So the attack will not work in reverse, as it's not going to bother anyone besides the fascists. As long Democrats continue to fight for everyone's rights they will dominate Republicans on social issues in polling and elections. edit: typo

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