maplebar

Palestinians can do no wrong at this point.

You may want to read up some about how LGBTQ people are treated in Gaza before you come out with gems like that, amigo...

Don't choose to be brainwashed. Both Israel and Palestine have done horrible and atrocious shit throughout this >80 year conflict. There is zero excuse for the blatant disregard of innocent civilian lives that we have seen on both side over the last 14 months alone. This is not a blank-and-white, good-vs-bad, situation.

Ooh, the ad homenim into family guy meme baseless "you're racist" strawman argument.

Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel of stupid shit to say, aren't you?

You're the one bringing race into this and I can only hazard a guess why....

As far as I know, no one has been convicted before a court for the October 7th attacks. We shouldn’t talk about the massacres then, right?

Nice one "bro", but there are hundreds of hours of high-resolution video footage of October 7th, much of which was recorded and published by Hamas militants themselves. Innocent people being fucking shot and killed, their homes and communes ransacked, men, women and children taken captive (about 100 of which are still unaccounted for today).

Is this your idea of good argument? Denial of a objectively horrible and well-documented massacre of people in broad daylight?

If so, that pretty disgusting. You dropped this 🤡

IF the evidence behind October 7th was "I dunno maybe it happened because someone says that they saw someone who looked like Hamas do something near something else but maybe not", then I would also have a very difficult time accepting that as fact. I would want to some actual evidence of that, wouldn't you?

Someone like you, who is more biased and hateful, would gladly accept something so inconclusive as a fact to justify their feelings of blind anger and tribal vengeance.

This holy war will go on for another 80 years because of people like you who are willing to believe anything that makes them feel better about whichever side of this pointless bullshit that they happen to subscribe to.

I'm not going to help you learn to read, man. I'm sorry. No offense.

I'm a secular atheist democratic libertarian socialist. Very little of that factors into my view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Face it. You guys are just being pissy because I asked for the receipts, and it turns out you don't have them.

• If caring about what is true or not makes me a "zionist" (it doesn't, fyi), then I guess I am.
• If advocating for the release of the remaining Israeli hostages from Gaza makes me a "zionist" (it doesn't, fyi), then I guess I am.
• If wanting a peaceful, cooperative two-state solution where both Palestine and Israel are run in a secular democratic manner makes me a "zionist" (it doesn't, fyi), then I guess I am.

Frankly, at this point I'm starting to think that many of you guys don't even know what a fucking "zionist" is. It's just become a mantra and a meme to some of you guys.

Imagine being this fragile and butthurt when someone asks if there is evidence behind a claim...

Believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to join the holy war and believe in the Torah or the prophet Muhammad then that's your own [bad] choice. As for me, I'm still going to choose to believe in objective facts.

I like how quick you are to shift the goalposts from “there’s no evidence. None at all” to “oh that evidence you provided?

Go ahead and explain to me about how a UN memo saying that something "may be" happening is "evidence" of anything?

Is it happening or is it not happening? If this was something that there was undeniable evidence of, do you think the report would say that it "may be" happening or that it "is" happening?

That's not moving the goalposts, that's just basic reading comprehension--something you clearly lack.

Keep cheering for genocide if that’s what you want to do, there’s no need to pretend this is about anything else.

Ah, here it is, the strawman we've all been waiting for!

I'm against any Israeli desire for genocide against the Palestinian people, just like I am against any Palestinian desire to genocide the Israeli people. I have always and will always believe in a peaceful two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine learn to cooperate, respect defined boundaries, enshrine equal rights for minorities, and run their nations in a democratic and secular fashion instead of a theocratic authoritarian one.

I mean... I get it, dude. It's cool.

I don't have a side in this holy war that has been going on since long before I was born. In fact, both the Israelis and the Palestinians have proven themselves to be barbaric shitheads who are more than happy to violate the norms of war and target innocent civilians in the name of their personal brand of violent genocide.

Like many other people on this website, you simply don't like it when people challenge your oh-so-nuanced "Israeli Jew bad, Palestinian Muslim good" viewpoint by asking for even the most basic thread of evidence to back up your provocative story, and so you get frustrated when the best evidence that you have is that some Palestinian witness claims to have seen an IDF soldier in the general vicinity of the thing happening.

That's fine, I guess. I'm still going to ask to see the receipts when people make outlandish claims.

This is not a court proceeding, so saying “hearsay is not evidence” is pointless.

You're right. In fact the stakes are much higher than a court proceeding, as is the need to be accurate and certain about allegations.

Witness testimony before a court would be evidence.

It would be, if the witness was someone deemed to be credible and if what they saw was consistent with other confirmed facts.

You should be glad that we happen to live in a world where "I saw them do it!" alone isn't enough to convict someone of a serious crime.

The details will have to be proven in court, when they eventually get their Nuremberg.

Good! And if/when that time comes, and the details are proven beyond a reasonable doubt with hard evidence, then it can be said to be a fact. What a concept, eh?

As of now, what you are describing is little more than a conspiracy theory akin to "stop the steal", flat earth, birtherism, and so on. All this conversation has shown is that the Lemmy groupthink is just as prone to believing conspiracy theories and propaganda that conforms to their biases as some of the wack-jobs on the far right.

If the story was flipped and we were accusing Palestinians of burning down an Israeli school I'd be making all the same points. You know why? Because If your standards for truth and objectivity morph and change depending on which side of the holy war you're talking about, then you don't really give a damn about the truth at all, do you?

Hey look! Performative European bureaucratic theater that will amount to nothing. I think this is what people call "virtue signalling", no?

More than a year into this shit show chapter of an 80 year conflict, war criminals, authoritarians and genocidal maniacs on both sides, no mechanism to compel arrest or enforce anything, and the Hamas officials that were named are potentially already dead. I can't believe that people don't know empty political gestures tossing red meat when they see it... 🙄

Netanyahu should be a man and go face the ICC himself in response to this warrant. After all, if the facts show that he has acted within the various laws and conventions of war, then he has nothing to fear. He obviously won't however, nor will anyone bother to arrest him in the US or EU.

"Bound by contract", lol...

Are you familiar with Donald Trump?

Make no mistake, this war is the culmination of multiple decades of extremist Israeli and Palestinian politics in which the worst possible human beings on both sides were propped up by a populace that has been blinded by decades of hate for the other.

This is what Netanyahu and Hamas have always wanted, and what they were always working towards.

Of course Israel has done wrong things, as have the Palestinians. This is a war that has been going on for ~80 years in a part of the world that has been fought over and ruled by dozens of empires over the last 3000 years.

Both sides of this conflict are guilty of terrible shit, but none of that is worth holding American secular democracy hostage.