this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2024
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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Sorry, I can't. Studies are ongoing, the most recent artcle I can find says that the first 120 days of the conflict alone were greater than the annual emissions of 26 individual countries and territories. When factoring in war infrastructure built by both Israel and Hamas, the total emissions increase to more than those of 36 countries and territories.

Again, that's just from the first 120 days. I'm sure I can't just multiply by three to get the past year, and the data isn't available.

Also that doesn't even factor in the carbon emissions that will come from rebuilding all of Gaza, because the whole strip is demolished.

And it doesn't factor in Israel dragging us to WW3. What do you think the climate impacts of that will be?

I can't accept that this is the best we can do.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No one said it was the best we can do.

I’m guessing you have heard the phrase, “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” That’s what you’re doing. You’re not going to get your pony.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I only said we should demand more and highlighted the Biden-Harris administration's fucked up priorities. I'm not asking for a pony, I'm asking that we stop burning fossil fuels to support a genocidal apartheid state. It's not an unreasonable expectation!

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Nope. That is not what you only said.

You also said this:

It won’t improve anything. Any progress that could be made will be undone by the massive carbon emissions from war. At best it might slow climate change slightly.

My guess is you said it because you either do not understand or do not accept the concept of mitigation and why mitigation is a good thing.

And slowing climate change gives us more time to fight it.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I stand by that. Mitigation doesn't improve anything, it only makes things bad at a slower rate. Nothing actually gets better.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Are you under the strange impression that it's just as easy to improve things whether or not harm is being mitigated?

Because I'm pretty sure it's easier when it is.

Which is why this will improve things. No, not on its own. Nothing is ever improved on its own when it comes to complex systems. You are reducing one of the most complex systems we know about, climate, to simple black-and-white terms.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I'm under the impression that it would be a lot easier to improve things if the billions spent supporting Israel were instead spent on climate change mitigation. That's not black-and-white, but it's a clear conflict between the administration's words and their actions.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, again, letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Very few people here want the money spent on Israel.

That doesn't mean acting like everything else that the Biden administration does is worthless because of it. It is possible to have massive criticisms of a political administration and acknowledge when they do something good.

Domestic clean energy manufacturing is a good thing. Bringing jobs to former coal communities that are depressed communities due to the coal no longer being mined is a good thing. Climate mitigation is a good thing. This helps with all of those things.

Pretending everything is awful because one thing is awful achieves nothing. Neither does making every Biden or Harris thread into a complaint about the U.S. aiding Israel. Who exactly do you think you're going to convince here? How does this constant complaining help Palestinians?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

My only point was to highlight how the Biden administration has it's priorities backwards i.e. millions for climate, billions for Israel.

I'm venting frustration. That's all the internet is good for anyway. Complaining doesn't matter, your arguing doesn't matter, nothing we post matters.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That’s all the internet is good for anyway.

What an extremely narrow way of looking at a vast network of computers containing most of the world's knowledge. Do you mean to say you've never used the internet to enlighten yourself in any way? Read a scanned-in book? Watch a digitized documentary or lecture? Nothing?

I spend hours poring over the amazing things available on the Internet Archive. So much media that you can learn from!

Substance farmers in third world countries even find uses for the Internet- all kinds of farming tips. There was an article I read some years ago about a village in sub-Saharan Africa where they basically had one guy who had internet access and farmers were constantly coming to him to get farming advice.

But you think the only thing that the internet is good for is venting your frustrations?

Honestly, that statement makes me sad for you.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I misspoke.

I was only talking about posting. Obviously the internet is far bigger than just the comments section.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think that's still a very narrow view of things. I have made lifelong friends on internet forums. I went to a meetup in August of this year and had the time of my life with the people I finally got to meet face-to-face. I can honestly that it was one of the most enjoyable three days of my life and I can't wait until we do it again next year. I also have friends in other countries that I met on forums who I've been talking to privately for years now.

And, of course, you can learn things from forums too. There's plenty of things people post on Lemmy that contain interesting information. Communities like c/science has lots of interesting and informative posts.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It was enjoyable because you got to meet them face-to-face. Without that face-to-face interaction, it's all hollow. If the internet facilitates a meet up then that's great, but the comments section itself is a pale comparison to real human interaction. That's why I don't believe arguing on the internet has any value.

Also, forums are not comments sections. That's a different medium. Forum topics can be bumped in perpetuity, forum posters are identifiable by an avatar and a tagline and all sorts of stuff, but a comments section is ephemeral by its very nature. We're two user names briefly interacting for a while and then that's it. This doesn't matter.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, it was enjoyable long before that. Sorry, you don't get to tell me what I find enjoyable.

And I thought we were talking about Lemmy here. Lemmy is a discussion forum.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Enjoyable, but hollow. Like junk food.

Lemmy is a link aggregator with a comments section for every link. A forum isn't built around links, it's built around community. On a forum, our discussion here would bump the thread up to the top of the forum topic every time we post. Forums are built for long term discussions over months and years, rather than ephemeral topics that fade off the front page in a day or two.

They're different mediums.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No. Not hollow.

Just because you haven't developed any real friendships with people online says a lot more about you than anyone else.

People used to have friendships solely through letters. People who never met and yet thought of each other fondly and shared their lives with each other.

There's many collections of these published over the years. I recommend the book 84 Charing Cross Road about a very close friendship that developed between a book lover in New York and a bookseller in London who never met in their lifetimes.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Not in comments sections. IRC is better for that.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Once again, you do not get to tell me about my friendships or how meaningful they are.

Comment sections are no different than sending letters. My friendships with people I met on forums are no different than the relationship between Helene Hanff and Frank Doel except their correspondence was far slower and there was far less of it.

I get that you can't make such friends. It's bizarre to me that you think this is a universal thing even when you're directly being told it isn't.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Letter correspondence, too, occurs over long periods of time. It's like forum discussion, the medium just too different to compare.

A comments section is ephemeral, this conversation lasted a few hours and now we might never talk again.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Do you think I'm lying about my friendships? Why would I lie about them?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

No, but I don't think I was saying your friendship is impossible anyway. I said arguing on the Internet is pointless and that you can't convince anyone of anything here, and then you dragged me off topic. Enjoy your friendships, as unlikely as they are - friendship can happen in unlikely places after all.

But no matter how much you might wish it, nothing you post will impact the election even slightly. You have to log off and talk to people face-to-face for that.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Well I certainly can't convince you that it's possible to make friends wherever people can regularly communicate, that's for sure. I'm not sure why considering it's been long-established.

This will really surprise you. You will probably say they had no real friendship until they met in person even though it's clear they did:

My husband and I met on youtube comments 5 and a half years ago. We chatted on the comment stream for a while, exchanged imessages, then started facetiming. He is from England and I am from the US. We were lucky enough he came over for a business trip the next state over three months later, and we met in person. It was wonderful! We got engaged after being together for 9 months when he was staying in the US for three months.

I visited him for a few weeks in the winter before coming back to marry him in late May. It took 14 months for him to immigrate to be with me in the US. We've been married for four years, together in person for 3 years. I would highly encourage you to meet with your SO for as long a period as possible in as normal life a situation as you can, and discuss the mundane things you do everyday and how you handle your life. You want to be on the same page. Living together for a period of time if at all possible can be crucial. It's more important thanhaving many shorter visits, I think.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Marriage/comments/oepidv/is_there_anyone_who_met_their_current_spouse/

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Complaining doesn’t matter, your arguing doesn’t matter, nothing we post matters.

This is what I said. You interpreted this as me saying that friendship is impossible, but I wasn't intending that. I do think it's hard, and shallow, but sure it can be done.

What I think is impossible in comment's sections is political action, which is what we were talking about before you brought up the power of friendship.

You have to log off to change people's minds about politics.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I do think it’s hard, and shallow, but sure it can be done.

Yes, I know you think you understand my friendships better than I do.

You don't.

You don't know me, you don't know my friends.

Stop pretending you do. Stop implying I'm lying.

It may be hard for you to make friends. It may be that your friendships are shallow. Stop telling me mine are because you have no fucking idea.

This is the stupidest attempt at gaslighting I have ever seen.

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You'll be happy to hear that Biden had invested billions into climate change.

https://www.wri.org/insights/biden-administration-tracking-climate-action-progress

Also

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

The "not as bad as" fallacy, also known as the fallacy of relative privation, asserts that:

If something is worse than the problem currently being discussed, then

The problem currently being discussed isn't that important at all.

In order for the statement "A is not as bad as B," to suggest a fallacy there must be a fallacious conclusion such as: ignore A.

You:

I only said we should demand more and highlighted the Biden-Harris administration's fucked up priorities. I'm not asking for a pony, I'm asking that we stop burning fossil fuels to support a genocidal apartheid state. It's not an unreasonable expectation!

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You misinterpreted what I said.

If we stopped supporting Israel, we'd stop burning the fuel we use to support them. Our support for Israel requires burning fossil fuel. We should stop doing that.

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I understand the fallacy, thanks.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Did I say "Ignore A" though? I just meant to highlight the contradiction.

Also, your link clearly says:

At COP28, the Biden administration pledged $3 billion to the Green Climate Fund but it is up to Congress to appropriate the funding. In the past two fiscal year budgets, Congress has appropriated only $1 billion annually for climate finance. While the U.S. Development Finance Corporation may be able to increase the level of funds mobilized, it will still not come close to the $11.4 billion mark. In addition, it’s not clear whether the U.S. can meet the $3 billion in funding for adaptation as part of a global pledge by developed countries to collectively double their adaptation finance by 2025.

Looks like we're not getting A. But! If we stopped wasting money burning fuel for Israel, we could meet those goals!

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's one part of the article, yes. And your last claim requires a citation.

But! If we stopped wasting money burning fuel for Israel, we could meet those goals!

Again, I understand the fallacy. I trust you will amend your previous statements? "Billions for climate change"?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Again.

If something is worse than the problem currently being discussed, then

The problem currently being discussed isn’t that important at all.

I. Didn't. Say. This.

I haven't said that. I am not saying that. I don't know why you keep fucking accusing me of saying it.

I trust you will amend your previous statements? “Billions for climate change”?

Sure sounds like there's only one billion per year. Billion.

So, sure. Let's say 1 billion per year for climate change. Compare that to 17.9 billion in the past year for Israel.

The priorities are fucked. That doesn't mean I'm using the “not as bad as” fallacy, that means I'm highlighting how we could be spending a whole hell of a lot more on climate change. I just want the money spent on Israel to be spent on climate instead.

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I understand the fallacy and what you said. The article seems to report more than 17.9 billion in total. Now it sounds like the goal posts are shifting.

Thanks for the discussion.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

You asked me to amend what I said.

I did, and because I did, you accuse me of moving goal posts. What??

I hate this website.

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Your original complaint (spending more on Israel than climate change) was at least an order of magnitude or two off from what is actually going on, and the "millions" part was easily disproven. Confronted with that, your new complaint (to the same ends) is now the time span under which these sums are dedicated, no longer the actual amount, despite that being satisfied now. I know what that sounds like.

Did you find a source that proves we could meet our climate goals if we didn't fund Israel?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's still an order of magnitude more support for Israel than climate, which still supports my point about the administration's priorities.

I doubt we could meet our goals if we simply transferred Israel's funding to climate, but I never claimed that.

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No it isn't (math) and yes you did (quoted).

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

17.9 billion is an order of magnitude higher than 1 billion. Do you know how orders of magnitude work?

Also... you didn't quote anything? Here's what I said:

I’m under the impression that it would be a lot easier to improve things if the billions spent supporting Israel were instead spent on climate change mitigation.

Easier. We do have to stop supporting Israel to meet our climate goals, but that alone will not be enough. We need to do way more than that. If I miscommunicated that I apologize.

[–] fukhueson@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Mmk

Edit: I'm not sticking around to discover how these arguments evolve again and again.